Conceptual vs. Technique based learning
This topic is an off-shoot of another thread. It touches on the conceptual method of Tuhon Gaje's teaching vs. rote memorization of "technique accumulation" so prevalent in MA's today . Many people who come out of "Technique" based training often initially have a difficult time understanding the focus of "Conceptual" type learning. It may seem unorganized at first, but you will soon see that it really focuses on the foundation principles of movement that all strategies, tactics, and techniques are built upon. The "structure" isn't always immediately apparent. It also forces you to take more of an initiative in your personal learning process to study, research, and explore the connections in the material presented to you.
This thread is from the Eskrima Digest ( boy it got quiet after this ;-) ). This section was started by my fellow Pekiti-Tirsia brother Leslie Buck.
William
*******************************************************************************************
From: "Leslie L. Buck Jr. TKA"
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:58:02 -0500
Subject: [Eskrima] On the nature of Pekiti Tirsia
Here's a topic that really gets me excited. It's the teaching method. I am interested in this because I truly believe the secret in martial arts is not in the technique, but in the training method. The best technique in the world will never work if it is not trained properly. So how effective we are going to be depends on the teaching method and our effort to learn.
As a generalization, I have seen two different approaches to teaching martialarts. One, I call the western method, which is often organized in a linear progression. It is more academic in nature. It typically codifies everything and labels even the variations of core material. The western method leads students through lessons in a way that everyone can learn. This is the way we typically learn in school.
The other method I call the eastern method. This is one that is nonlinear. It is often taught without consistancy in content. Fewer connections in the material are illustrated. Less feedback is offered and there often more than one "right way." This method more similar to how we learn language - through imitation, conversation, and trial and error when we don't have a dictionary or grammar book. It's through research. It's up to you to learn it.
These are of course generalizations, and I only name them as eastern or western methods because of my personal experience. Teachers I've known from the west tended to be more methodical whereas my personal teachers from the
east (Indonesia, Philippines) seemed to vary the material and leave a lot of the information up for discovery rather than using direct illustration.
And this leads to my point. Tuhon Gaje is teaching in a method that is more eastern in nature. You learn by accumulation. The more pieces of the puzzle you put together, the clearer the big picture becomes. In truth, there is a
structure behind the material you learn, but you are often not given that structure ahead of time. You must keep training and find it for yourself. This is not because Tuhon forgot what he taught you last time, it's because he wants you to develop critical thinking skills. He wants you to learn to adapt and explore. Tuhon requires you to read between the lines and figure stuff out rather than just hand it to you. He may show you the technique in a seminar, but does he teach you how to apply it? Or perhaps he develops your skills to apply a technique, but doesn't reveal a technique or its significance until later. It's not only a way to ensure only loyal students get the "secret stuff," but it's also a way to weed out those who either don't get it or just don't try hard to learn.
I think because of this, Tuhon Gaje's students and instructor's have different levels of understanding and expertise with the same material. Some instructor's may just teach the way they remember Tuhon did them by chunking material together. Others may rearrange the material to suit their own method. Again, like learning a language, there are "basics" such as simple vocabulary and syntax, but there is more than one place to start.
Like my friend Loki, I started with Tuhon Gaje in 98 after many years with my instructor Erwin Ballarta. I was fortunate to have some knowledge before my first lesson with Tuhon, and ever since then, I have studied his method of teaching in addition to the material itself. There are many layers to it, and I really have a high appreciation for it. I could go on forever, but as you
can see I have already too much. (sorry.) Anyway, I think the new person with Tuhon is either blown away with the challenge and passion or disappointed because they did not see the significance of what he offered.
To sum it up: Tuhon's method works best individually and in small groups because it is tailored to the student. The goal is not for everyone to learn it all. You will not be given the next step until you pick up on the first one. Later, you are guided to learn through your own discoveries. Also, you are given the freedom to make mistakes. It's a part of the learning process.
Once you start to get it, then the learning and teaching process will accelerate - more subtleties are revealed, more material is condensed in drills that require more. Eventually, you will learn on the fly (while Tuhon is hitting you), through technical sparring and bridging drills, through teaching and through sharing experiences with other instructors and students who are on the same quest for knowledge.
best regards to all,
Leslie
*****************************************************************************
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: jay de leon
Subject: Re: [Eskrima] On the nature of Pekiti Tirsia
Enjoyed the overview. One thing that has always helped me both teach and learn is to distinguish between concept and technique.
For example, I could probably keep a newbie busy for the next two years just teaching double stick sinawali patterns (depending on his and my threshhold of boredom and the threshhold of his wallet). But what good does that accomplish?
Chances are, if you show him a dozen basic patterns and teach him the concept, he should be able to figure out a few more dozen on his own, and even "discover" countless new patterns. Then he starts to integrate this in the overall scheme
of the arnis universe. In fact, for me, that's what makes learning arnis fun, and (joyously) interminable.
Jay de Leon
*******************************************************************************
From: "William Schultz"
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:13:26 -0400
Subject: [Eskrima] RE: On the nature of Pekiti-Tirsia
Excellent post Leslie. My experience training with Tuhon mirrors exactly
what you describe. The principles and keys are shown to you, but it's up to you to study and put in the time to explore and discover the connections. Then build off of it. I believe having to put in the time & exploration leads to a greater understanding of the principles and mechanics behind the material.
As Tuhon says, "It's not the years, it's the hours trained".
>>>You will not be given the next step until you pick up on the first one. >>>
This is contrary to the "technique accumulation" approach that many in the MA world are used to. It's not about learning technique 1A, 1B, 1C for level one. Technique 2A, 2B, 2C for level two etc... It's focused more on learning the principles of movement (footwork, striking mechanics & power generation), angles of attack & counter-offense and the ability to combine these aspects together in a fluid, powerful and effective manner across weapon categories. That's not to say that "techniques" are not taught, once you have the foundation system down, you work strategy and tactic methods. Each method prescribes a specific strategy, a combative plan or principle, and accompanying tactics, techniques or skills of execution. PT is a complete system where strategies and tactics, techniques and skills are encompassed into an integrated working composition. Each method addresses a specific strategy and then provides different tactics and techniques that simultaneously incorporate footwork, offensive and counter-offensive combative application and attribute development. Each of these components can be isolated and trained individually to perfect each particular movement. It's a dynamic approach & thought-provoking process of learning that stimulates thought and in depth study to a higher degree then rote memorization of techniques.
I teach more in this method as well and it does tend to throw off new students who are used to other approach. I try to explain the reasoning behind it. Some get it and stay with it, some don't and move on.
Tangents eh Jack? :-)
William Schultz
New England Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls
Mongrel Combative Systems
EG Rhode Island
williamsmartialblog.blogspot.com
*******************************************************************************
From: "Young Forest"
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:15:21 +0000
Subject: [Eskrima] Re: On the nature of Pekiti Tirsia
Jay de Leon mentioned:
>For example, I could probably keep a newbie busy for the next two years just teaching double stick sinawali patterns >(depending on his and my threshhold of boredom and the threshhold of his wallet). But what good does that accomplish? >Chances are, if you show him a dozen basic patterns and teach him the concept, he should be able to figure out a few more >dozen on his own, and even "discover" countless new patterns. Then he starts to integrate this in the overall scheme of the >arnis universe. In fact, for me, that's what makes learning arnis fun, and (joyously) interminable.
Confucious said something similar, that if he gives a student one corner of a handkerchief, he expects the student to find the other three corners.
Badger
Siling Labuyo Arnis
**************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:58:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Kohn
Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: On the nature of Pekiti-Tirsia
These are great points. The cool thing about learning MAs from a conceptual rather than a technical perspective is that, while techniques are specific, concepts are universal...and can be applied to virtually any art. For example, as someone who teaches martial arts as well as music (specifically the guitar), the concept of economy of motion applies beautifully to the techniques of both arts. Another example would be "the flow"as taught in Escrima. The ability to react with fluid technique in combat is no different to me than improvising with another musician and having to appropriately respond to their musical ideas. The only obvious difference would be that it hurts far more to react incorrectly in combat than it does in music!
Best,
Steve Kohn
*******************************************************************************
From: Beungood8
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:28:18 EDT
Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Tangents
In a message dated 5/17/2005 7:57:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes:
>It's a dynamic approach & thought-provoking process of learning that stimulates thought and in depth study to a higher >degree then rote memorization of techniques.
>
>I teach more in this method as well and it does tend to throw off new students who are used to other approach. I try to >explain the reasoning behind it. Some get it and stay with it, some don't and move on.
>
>Tangents eh Jack? :-)
>
>William Schultz
>
>New England Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls
Upon looking at both methods, Id have to say I like the dynamic approach as compared to the minutae of rote learning in other arts ive trained in. This method of focusing on the principles of movement helped to unlock the confusion of memorizing number's of techniques and actually made sense out of some things that were passed onto me that maybe were not understood by that particular teacher. What seemed like chaos now reveals it's brillance...
Jack O
Student of New England Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls/Mongrel Combatives "Making
sense out of confusion..."
This thread is from the Eskrima Digest ( boy it got quiet after this ;-) ). This section was started by my fellow Pekiti-Tirsia brother Leslie Buck.
William
*******************************************************************************************
From: "Leslie L. Buck Jr. TKA"
Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:58:02 -0500
Subject: [Eskrima] On the nature of Pekiti Tirsia
Here's a topic that really gets me excited. It's the teaching method. I am interested in this because I truly believe the secret in martial arts is not in the technique, but in the training method. The best technique in the world will never work if it is not trained properly. So how effective we are going to be depends on the teaching method and our effort to learn.
As a generalization, I have seen two different approaches to teaching martialarts. One, I call the western method, which is often organized in a linear progression. It is more academic in nature. It typically codifies everything and labels even the variations of core material. The western method leads students through lessons in a way that everyone can learn. This is the way we typically learn in school.
The other method I call the eastern method. This is one that is nonlinear. It is often taught without consistancy in content. Fewer connections in the material are illustrated. Less feedback is offered and there often more than one "right way." This method more similar to how we learn language - through imitation, conversation, and trial and error when we don't have a dictionary or grammar book. It's through research. It's up to you to learn it.
These are of course generalizations, and I only name them as eastern or western methods because of my personal experience. Teachers I've known from the west tended to be more methodical whereas my personal teachers from the
east (Indonesia, Philippines) seemed to vary the material and leave a lot of the information up for discovery rather than using direct illustration.
And this leads to my point. Tuhon Gaje is teaching in a method that is more eastern in nature. You learn by accumulation. The more pieces of the puzzle you put together, the clearer the big picture becomes. In truth, there is a
structure behind the material you learn, but you are often not given that structure ahead of time. You must keep training and find it for yourself. This is not because Tuhon forgot what he taught you last time, it's because he wants you to develop critical thinking skills. He wants you to learn to adapt and explore. Tuhon requires you to read between the lines and figure stuff out rather than just hand it to you. He may show you the technique in a seminar, but does he teach you how to apply it? Or perhaps he develops your skills to apply a technique, but doesn't reveal a technique or its significance until later. It's not only a way to ensure only loyal students get the "secret stuff," but it's also a way to weed out those who either don't get it or just don't try hard to learn.
I think because of this, Tuhon Gaje's students and instructor's have different levels of understanding and expertise with the same material. Some instructor's may just teach the way they remember Tuhon did them by chunking material together. Others may rearrange the material to suit their own method. Again, like learning a language, there are "basics" such as simple vocabulary and syntax, but there is more than one place to start.
Like my friend Loki, I started with Tuhon Gaje in 98 after many years with my instructor Erwin Ballarta. I was fortunate to have some knowledge before my first lesson with Tuhon, and ever since then, I have studied his method of teaching in addition to the material itself. There are many layers to it, and I really have a high appreciation for it. I could go on forever, but as you
can see I have already too much. (sorry.) Anyway, I think the new person with Tuhon is either blown away with the challenge and passion or disappointed because they did not see the significance of what he offered.
To sum it up: Tuhon's method works best individually and in small groups because it is tailored to the student. The goal is not for everyone to learn it all. You will not be given the next step until you pick up on the first one. Later, you are guided to learn through your own discoveries. Also, you are given the freedom to make mistakes. It's a part of the learning process.
Once you start to get it, then the learning and teaching process will accelerate - more subtleties are revealed, more material is condensed in drills that require more. Eventually, you will learn on the fly (while Tuhon is hitting you), through technical sparring and bridging drills, through teaching and through sharing experiences with other instructors and students who are on the same quest for knowledge.
best regards to all,
Leslie
*****************************************************************************
Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:36:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: jay de leon
Subject: Re: [Eskrima] On the nature of Pekiti Tirsia
Enjoyed the overview. One thing that has always helped me both teach and learn is to distinguish between concept and technique.
For example, I could probably keep a newbie busy for the next two years just teaching double stick sinawali patterns (depending on his and my threshhold of boredom and the threshhold of his wallet). But what good does that accomplish?
Chances are, if you show him a dozen basic patterns and teach him the concept, he should be able to figure out a few more dozen on his own, and even "discover" countless new patterns. Then he starts to integrate this in the overall scheme
of the arnis universe. In fact, for me, that's what makes learning arnis fun, and (joyously) interminable.
Jay de Leon
*******************************************************************************
From: "William Schultz"
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:13:26 -0400
Subject: [Eskrima] RE: On the nature of Pekiti-Tirsia
Excellent post Leslie. My experience training with Tuhon mirrors exactly
what you describe. The principles and keys are shown to you, but it's up to you to study and put in the time to explore and discover the connections. Then build off of it. I believe having to put in the time & exploration leads to a greater understanding of the principles and mechanics behind the material.
As Tuhon says, "It's not the years, it's the hours trained".
>>>You will not be given the next step until you pick up on the first one. >>>
This is contrary to the "technique accumulation" approach that many in the MA world are used to. It's not about learning technique 1A, 1B, 1C for level one. Technique 2A, 2B, 2C for level two etc... It's focused more on learning the principles of movement (footwork, striking mechanics & power generation), angles of attack & counter-offense and the ability to combine these aspects together in a fluid, powerful and effective manner across weapon categories. That's not to say that "techniques" are not taught, once you have the foundation system down, you work strategy and tactic methods. Each method prescribes a specific strategy, a combative plan or principle, and accompanying tactics, techniques or skills of execution. PT is a complete system where strategies and tactics, techniques and skills are encompassed into an integrated working composition. Each method addresses a specific strategy and then provides different tactics and techniques that simultaneously incorporate footwork, offensive and counter-offensive combative application and attribute development. Each of these components can be isolated and trained individually to perfect each particular movement. It's a dynamic approach & thought-provoking process of learning that stimulates thought and in depth study to a higher degree then rote memorization of techniques.
I teach more in this method as well and it does tend to throw off new students who are used to other approach. I try to explain the reasoning behind it. Some get it and stay with it, some don't and move on.
Tangents eh Jack? :-)
William Schultz
New England Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls
Mongrel Combative Systems
EG Rhode Island
williamsmartialblog.blogspot.com
*******************************************************************************
From: "Young Forest"
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:15:21 +0000
Subject: [Eskrima] Re: On the nature of Pekiti Tirsia
Jay de Leon mentioned:
>For example, I could probably keep a newbie busy for the next two years just teaching double stick sinawali patterns >(depending on his and my threshhold of boredom and the threshhold of his wallet). But what good does that accomplish? >Chances are, if you show him a dozen basic patterns and teach him the concept, he should be able to figure out a few more >dozen on his own, and even "discover" countless new patterns. Then he starts to integrate this in the overall scheme of the >arnis universe. In fact, for me, that's what makes learning arnis fun, and (joyously) interminable.
Confucious said something similar, that if he gives a student one corner of a handkerchief, he expects the student to find the other three corners.
Badger
Siling Labuyo Arnis
**************************************************************************
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:58:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steve Kohn
Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: On the nature of Pekiti-Tirsia
These are great points. The cool thing about learning MAs from a conceptual rather than a technical perspective is that, while techniques are specific, concepts are universal...and can be applied to virtually any art. For example, as someone who teaches martial arts as well as music (specifically the guitar), the concept of economy of motion applies beautifully to the techniques of both arts. Another example would be "the flow"as taught in Escrima. The ability to react with fluid technique in combat is no different to me than improvising with another musician and having to appropriately respond to their musical ideas. The only obvious difference would be that it hurts far more to react incorrectly in combat than it does in music!
Best,
Steve Kohn
*******************************************************************************
From: Beungood8
Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 21:28:18 EDT
Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Tangents
In a message dated 5/17/2005 7:57:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes:
>It's a dynamic approach & thought-provoking process of learning that stimulates thought and in depth study to a higher >degree then rote memorization of techniques.
>
>I teach more in this method as well and it does tend to throw off new students who are used to other approach. I try to >explain the reasoning behind it. Some get it and stay with it, some don't and move on.
>
>Tangents eh Jack? :-)
>
>William Schultz
>
>New England Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls
Upon looking at both methods, Id have to say I like the dynamic approach as compared to the minutae of rote learning in other arts ive trained in. This method of focusing on the principles of movement helped to unlock the confusion of memorizing number's of techniques and actually made sense out of some things that were passed onto me that maybe were not understood by that particular teacher. What seemed like chaos now reveals it's brillance...
Jack O
Student of New England Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls/Mongrel Combatives "Making
sense out of confusion..."
posted by Guro William Schultz at 5:55 PM
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