Alternitives to rattan
In my quest to find superior training equipment, I researched a number of sythetic materials to utilize for impact weaponry training. I was tired of constantly burning through good sticks. When you're training full power, even good sticks don't last that long. Delrin, or acetyl rod so far has proved to be the most durable. It takes a lot of abuse and does a good job of dissapating the reverberations from hard contact. It is a little heavier then an equivilent 1" x 30" rattan baston, but it holds up much better and its impact has a nasty bone penetrating quality to it. In full power ranging and bridging drills your training partner will want to use acetyl as well. Rattan doesn't hold up and it will shred them in no time flat. Your training partners won't be happy with you.
The only thing I miss is that burning rattan smell...mmmmm.
William
*************************************************************************
Synthetic Sticks originally posted 12/31/02:
Posted by William:
As always, very objective review. While we're on the subject.
On synthetic materials:
I have been testing a few thermoplastic/synthetic materials for a while now. I was getting tired of burning through rattan so fast during full force ranging drills that I wanted to see what else was out there. Don't get me wrong here, I love using rattan (Oh that burning smell, Ummmmm...) but I wanted to test other materials. I checked into some of the folks selling synthetic sticks but couldn't bring myself to pay the price they were asking on something I couldn't heft before buying. So, I opened the phone book and called some local plastic rod suppliers and explained what I was looking for and what I wanted to do with them. Some folks thought I was a bit off my rocker (which I am). After trying a few different materials, I settled on Delrin, it is my favorite so far. It's a thermoplastic that is used for making gears and ball bearings to name a few uses for it. Very tough stuff. It's black and it looks smooth but actually has a slight texture to it that allows me to use it without any wrap at all. I haven't had a problem with it slipping, even bashing in 90+ degree heat. A 1" diameter stick, 31" long is a bit heavier then an equivelent rattan stick. So far I have not been able to shatter them. They've held up to full force bashing (delrin to delrin) in ranging drills. There is a little reverberation, but nothing like polycarbonate (ouch). It will rip the hell out of rattan in no time flat (your training partners won't be happy). Lite striking to the body tells me that I don't want to get hit with these things full force. I've taken full strikes with rattan, but this stuff has a nasty penetrating quality to it that would shatter bone.......cooool!!!
And, at only about $8.00 a stick (if I remember correctly).
William
*************************************************************************
Posted by William:
>>>Do you know of a 'Net source for Delrin rods, William?>>>
This is the company that I bought the Delrin rod from in Portland. I don't
know what shipping and handling might add to the cost (BTW, this was more than a year ago so prices may have changed). I was living there at
the time so I just drove down to get it. I would suggest looking in the
Yellow pages for your area first. If you can't find anything, then go by the
Net.
www.multicraftplastics.com
Another possibility...
www.aptechno.com/stock-shapes.htm
And yet another...
http://www.tapplastics.com/plastics..._acetalrod.html
As you will see, it comes in white as well (and other colors to order...in bulk). I prefer the black myself.
William
***************************************************************************
Posted by William:
BTW, the added weight takes a little getting used to. My size falls on the far side of the Bell curve so the added weight wasn't to big a deal. I would recommend slower training for a few sessions until you get accustomed to it. Or, if you are used to using 31" rattan sticks, you could cut these to say 29" to even out the weight a bit more.
Just a suggestion or two.
William
*************************************************************************
Posted by William:
>>>But what about the length Phil? Would practicing with a shorter than average tool throw your timing off a bit?>>>
You should be playing with weapons of different weights AS WELL AS different lengths (and I'm not talking about the add-on kind there spankster).
William
************************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
I contacted Multicraft today and got very good, friendly service. They're shipping me a small supply of two-foot, one-inch-diameter Acetal rods (in black). I'll let you know how they work out.
***********************************************************************
Posted by William:
Excellent! Yes, they were very helpful. To bad you can't go and paruse through the "Bargin Basement". Lots of fun things to play with.
Best of luck.
William
****************************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
I imagine I'll do a review of them, at least briefly, as a synthetic stick equivalent. William says they work so I'm already favorably inclined towards them, but what I'll be curious to see is just how the weight, surface, and length in just-under-two-feet compares to rattan or to, say, the f-stix.
*********************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
According to Kevin, the representative with whom I spoke, In 10 foot lengths the cost per foot for Acetal rod is $1.63 for 3/4" diameter, $2.45 for 7/8", and $2.95 for the 1". They charge $.25 for each cut made to the material if you ask them to cut it to length for you, I believe. Cost is more per foot if you buy less than ten feet, though.
***********************************************************************
Posted by K Williams:
Wow!! That's $29.50 for 10' X 1". That would make two pairs of 28" X 1" sticks and one palm stick for $30.50 before shipping. You can use a Dremel tool to smooth the ends of the sticks to remove any burrs from the cuts. Now you all have me thinking...I have too many sticks already. I shouldn't have read this thread.
******************************************************************************
Posted by eXcessiveforce:
I used 1" oak sticks for awhile they were good for building up your arms and for speed. They would kill ratan in a few minutes at medium contact. But some would shatter over time.
I have a set of cocobollo sticks that I use know but they are damn heavy.
Has anyone tried Acrylic. I saw some masters using blue sticks and was told they were acrylic and that is the only type that the masters would use in this organization.
*************************************************************************
Posted by William:
>>>Has anyone tried Acrylic. >>>
I inquired about it but was told it would shatter. Playing around a little bit with a short piece at Multicraft, I got the feeling that even if they didn't break, they would transfer the reverbs of full-on strikes to your hand like polycarbonate (OUCH).
>>>used 1" oak sticks for awhile they were good for building up your arms and for speed. They would kill ratan in a few minutes at medium contact. But some would shatter over time.<<<
That's the problem with Hardwoods. They tend to shatter and send shards flying. I did find that Hickory held up well though. At an exotic hardwood supplier back in Portland, I was told that Vera (sp?) wood might be a good choice for sticks. The grains weave together as it grows to make it extremely strong. Unfortunately I never got around to trying it. I imagine it's quite expensive.
I'll be sure to let you know the next time I'm flying out
William
**********************************************************************
Posted by eXecessiveforce:
I am very happy with my cocobolo sticks. they have held up for years and are extremely strong.
Once when working with them in an area with a low ceiling I hit a steel beam on the ceiling and it only left a little dent. They have stood up to a lot of abuse from people trying to beat the hell out of them just to see if they could break them.
But they were a little pricey.
I'm thinking maybe I might try out the sticks that you found. I look forward to what phil has to say about them.
****************************************************************************
Posted by William:
>>>...but what I'll be curious to see is just how the weight, surface, and length in just-under-two-feet compares to rattan or to, say, the f-stix.>>>
A thought crossed my mind (as they are so in frequent ). I'll be curious to hear if the shorter length you are receiving will increase the reverb/shock transmission of a hit. A longer piece (say 28"-31") should allow for more shock dissapation.
As I said, just a thought...OUCH! It hurts when I do that. Where's the aspirin?
William
***********************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
I generally prefer the standard 26-inch sticks for length, so hopefully just-a-saw-cut-under-24 inches won't be too different. I'm looking forward to seeing how these work, though.
**********************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
The Acetal rods arrived. A report on them will be done soon, after I've had a chance to examine them thoroughly.
*************************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
Report completed.
You, too, can turn the modern plastics industry to your advantage.
http://www.philelmore.com/martial/acetal.htm
(Link no longer valid)
*************************************************************************
Posted by Spanky:
Excellent Review as always Phil.
However, reading the article generated two questions.
Should all reviewers have their own postal scale?
>>>'I've whacked it against things with no real damage'>>>
Does your target list include the dreaded Noggin of Phil? I figure if it can survive that whack, it will be more than a match for anything I come up against....
Spanky
Posted by William:
Phil, great review on a cheap stick alternative.
>>>The 1" diameter Acetal feels fairly indestructible. I've whacked it against things with no real damage, though there must be a point at which the plastic will crack or shatter. Shock is transferred readily to the hand.>>>
I thought the shorter length would probably increase shock transmission. I guess the extra 7 inches that I throw around dissipates the shock enough that I'm not bothered by it. I like what you did with the para cord, though I personally prefer them bare.
William
***************************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
Thanks, William. I'll bet in longer length those things are monstrous breakers.
I'm obtaining a supply of 3/4" Acetal that I may end up cord-wrapping for handles. We'll see how it goes. I have a few other ideas in mind, too.
The only thing I miss is that burning rattan smell...mmmmm.
William
*************************************************************************
Synthetic Sticks originally posted 12/31/02:
Posted by William:
As always, very objective review. While we're on the subject.
On synthetic materials:
I have been testing a few thermoplastic/synthetic materials for a while now. I was getting tired of burning through rattan so fast during full force ranging drills that I wanted to see what else was out there. Don't get me wrong here, I love using rattan (Oh that burning smell, Ummmmm...) but I wanted to test other materials. I checked into some of the folks selling synthetic sticks but couldn't bring myself to pay the price they were asking on something I couldn't heft before buying. So, I opened the phone book and called some local plastic rod suppliers and explained what I was looking for and what I wanted to do with them. Some folks thought I was a bit off my rocker (which I am). After trying a few different materials, I settled on Delrin, it is my favorite so far. It's a thermoplastic that is used for making gears and ball bearings to name a few uses for it. Very tough stuff. It's black and it looks smooth but actually has a slight texture to it that allows me to use it without any wrap at all. I haven't had a problem with it slipping, even bashing in 90+ degree heat. A 1" diameter stick, 31" long is a bit heavier then an equivelent rattan stick. So far I have not been able to shatter them. They've held up to full force bashing (delrin to delrin) in ranging drills. There is a little reverberation, but nothing like polycarbonate (ouch). It will rip the hell out of rattan in no time flat (your training partners won't be happy). Lite striking to the body tells me that I don't want to get hit with these things full force. I've taken full strikes with rattan, but this stuff has a nasty penetrating quality to it that would shatter bone.......cooool!!!
And, at only about $8.00 a stick (if I remember correctly).
William
*************************************************************************
Posted by William:
>>>Do you know of a 'Net source for Delrin rods, William?>>>
This is the company that I bought the Delrin rod from in Portland. I don't
know what shipping and handling might add to the cost (BTW, this was more than a year ago so prices may have changed). I was living there at
the time so I just drove down to get it. I would suggest looking in the
Yellow pages for your area first. If you can't find anything, then go by the
Net.
www.multicraftplastics.com
Another possibility...
www.aptechno.com/stock-shapes.htm
And yet another...
http://www.tapplastics.com/plastics..._acetalrod.html
As you will see, it comes in white as well (and other colors to order...in bulk). I prefer the black myself.
William
***************************************************************************
Posted by William:
BTW, the added weight takes a little getting used to. My size falls on the far side of the Bell curve so the added weight wasn't to big a deal. I would recommend slower training for a few sessions until you get accustomed to it. Or, if you are used to using 31" rattan sticks, you could cut these to say 29" to even out the weight a bit more.
Just a suggestion or two.
William
*************************************************************************
Posted by William:
>>>But what about the length Phil? Would practicing with a shorter than average tool throw your timing off a bit?>>>
You should be playing with weapons of different weights AS WELL AS different lengths (and I'm not talking about the add-on kind there spankster).
William
************************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
I contacted Multicraft today and got very good, friendly service. They're shipping me a small supply of two-foot, one-inch-diameter Acetal rods (in black). I'll let you know how they work out.
***********************************************************************
Posted by William:
Excellent! Yes, they were very helpful. To bad you can't go and paruse through the "Bargin Basement". Lots of fun things to play with.
Best of luck.
William
****************************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
I imagine I'll do a review of them, at least briefly, as a synthetic stick equivalent. William says they work so I'm already favorably inclined towards them, but what I'll be curious to see is just how the weight, surface, and length in just-under-two-feet compares to rattan or to, say, the f-stix.
*********************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
According to Kevin, the representative with whom I spoke, In 10 foot lengths the cost per foot for Acetal rod is $1.63 for 3/4" diameter, $2.45 for 7/8", and $2.95 for the 1". They charge $.25 for each cut made to the material if you ask them to cut it to length for you, I believe. Cost is more per foot if you buy less than ten feet, though.
***********************************************************************
Posted by K Williams:
Wow!! That's $29.50 for 10' X 1". That would make two pairs of 28" X 1" sticks and one palm stick for $30.50 before shipping. You can use a Dremel tool to smooth the ends of the sticks to remove any burrs from the cuts. Now you all have me thinking...I have too many sticks already. I shouldn't have read this thread.
******************************************************************************
Posted by eXcessiveforce:
I used 1" oak sticks for awhile they were good for building up your arms and for speed. They would kill ratan in a few minutes at medium contact. But some would shatter over time.
I have a set of cocobollo sticks that I use know but they are damn heavy.
Has anyone tried Acrylic. I saw some masters using blue sticks and was told they were acrylic and that is the only type that the masters would use in this organization.
*************************************************************************
Posted by William:
>>>Has anyone tried Acrylic. >>>
I inquired about it but was told it would shatter. Playing around a little bit with a short piece at Multicraft, I got the feeling that even if they didn't break, they would transfer the reverbs of full-on strikes to your hand like polycarbonate (OUCH).
>>>used 1" oak sticks for awhile they were good for building up your arms and for speed. They would kill ratan in a few minutes at medium contact. But some would shatter over time.<<<
That's the problem with Hardwoods. They tend to shatter and send shards flying. I did find that Hickory held up well though. At an exotic hardwood supplier back in Portland, I was told that Vera (sp?) wood might be a good choice for sticks. The grains weave together as it grows to make it extremely strong. Unfortunately I never got around to trying it. I imagine it's quite expensive.
I'll be sure to let you know the next time I'm flying out
William
**********************************************************************
Posted by eXecessiveforce:
I am very happy with my cocobolo sticks. they have held up for years and are extremely strong.
Once when working with them in an area with a low ceiling I hit a steel beam on the ceiling and it only left a little dent. They have stood up to a lot of abuse from people trying to beat the hell out of them just to see if they could break them.
But they were a little pricey.
I'm thinking maybe I might try out the sticks that you found. I look forward to what phil has to say about them.
****************************************************************************
Posted by William:
>>>...but what I'll be curious to see is just how the weight, surface, and length in just-under-two-feet compares to rattan or to, say, the f-stix.>>>
A thought crossed my mind (as they are so in frequent ). I'll be curious to hear if the shorter length you are receiving will increase the reverb/shock transmission of a hit. A longer piece (say 28"-31") should allow for more shock dissapation.
As I said, just a thought...OUCH! It hurts when I do that. Where's the aspirin?
William
***********************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
I generally prefer the standard 26-inch sticks for length, so hopefully just-a-saw-cut-under-24 inches won't be too different. I'm looking forward to seeing how these work, though.
**********************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
The Acetal rods arrived. A report on them will be done soon, after I've had a chance to examine them thoroughly.
*************************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
Report completed.
You, too, can turn the modern plastics industry to your advantage.
http://www.philelmore.com/martial/acetal.htm
(Link no longer valid)
*************************************************************************
Posted by Spanky:
Excellent Review as always Phil.
However, reading the article generated two questions.
Should all reviewers have their own postal scale?
>>>'I've whacked it against things with no real damage'>>>
Does your target list include the dreaded Noggin of Phil? I figure if it can survive that whack, it will be more than a match for anything I come up against....
Spanky
Posted by William:
Phil, great review on a cheap stick alternative.
>>>The 1" diameter Acetal feels fairly indestructible. I've whacked it against things with no real damage, though there must be a point at which the plastic will crack or shatter. Shock is transferred readily to the hand.>>>
I thought the shorter length would probably increase shock transmission. I guess the extra 7 inches that I throw around dissipates the shock enough that I'm not bothered by it. I like what you did with the para cord, though I personally prefer them bare.
William
***************************************************************************
Posted by sharp phil:
Thanks, William. I'll bet in longer length those things are monstrous breakers.
I'm obtaining a supply of 3/4" Acetal that I may end up cord-wrapping for handles. We'll see how it goes. I have a few other ideas in mind, too.
posted by Guro William Schultz at 9:16 AM
<< Home