Knife thread cont...
These are Replies from the Paxbacculum forum to the same intro Knife article that started the original* knife thread. Since my handle (William) was already taken on this site, I resorted to "The real William".
William
***********************************************************************
Posted by Deadmanwalking:
Thank You The Real William!
I try to explain that to people all the time, that knives are to be taken very seriously and no one ever believes me.
**********************************************************************
Posted by Ray Nelson:
*sniff*
I love you, man!
Great posts, should be required reading for anyone going into weapons training or disarms in M.A.
Respectfully,
Ray Nelson
***************************************************************
Posted by lKlawson:
>>>The real William wrote:
98% of the knife disarms and counters that were taught were unrealistic (to be nice) to say the least. Even deadly if you happen to be facing someone who really knows how to use a blade. >>>
True.
>>>The real William wrote:
One of the differences was that he was used to practicing the old --- person one thrusts or slashes and freezes. Person two works his technique. Once he tried in a flowing manner where the opponent isn’t going to freeze for you but instead is going to flow and try to take you out… a whole new world was opened up to him.>>>
Let's be honest. It's true that most people who are going to assault you with a knife are not going stand still with arm extended after a simple thrust and wait for you to disarm them.
By the same token, most people who are going to assault you with a knife don't know "flow" from a hole in the ground. No sense of flowing at all. More like a series of unrealated, stacato movements one following rapidly after the next. Sometimes.
Newbies with a knife are predictable.
DANGEROUS but predictable.
As an example, they're often going to use wide, horizontal slashes in an effort to "keep you back." Works too. Them slashes can be hard to deal with.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
*********************************************************************
Posted by Ted T.
>>Quote:
I have to admit that in previous arts that I had studied (before I got into the Filipino arts and a couple of real life situations) 98% of the knife disarms and counters that were taught were unrealistic (to be nice) to say the least. Even deadly if you happen to be facing someone who really knows how to use a blade.>>>
Great essay!
My only exception is that your opponent doesn't have to be "someone who really knows how to use a blade." An enraged amateur with no training can gut out a martial artist, as we know.
After 20 yrs of knife defense foolishness, I took arnis training to see if they had a more realistic approach and indeed they did, in teh attack. But even then, the basics were covered in two seasons and after that the system started to get as cluttered with artsy Jackie Chan bollocks ™ as much as any other ma. Still it gave me a realistic attack to start to prepare a realistic defense.
My next step turned out to be an exploration of WWII cqc and their (FAS) methods. These I like and along with the control methods of modern policework, gave me, I believe, a working sylabus with some hope for success.
I remember taking a bunch of guys thru a seminar on knife defense in our region. I started with the old 'give em a marker pen and tell them to cut their opponent to shreds however they liked' drill and of course, everyone was dead inside 60 seconds. Big eyes all around!! Then we got down to work on feasibility studies of how to manage the wildness of such a situation. A great day was had by all, but I paid hard for it...my sensei was told about it and got so insecure that at the next class I attended with him, he did his old six moves on the frozen attack technique with me as uke and tossed me all over and nearly broke my elbow and wrist. The guys who had been to my seminar were able to see the fallicies of the frozen 'do this, do this, and then do this' style so I felt it was worth it.
_________________
Ted Truscott
*********************************************************************
Posted by the real William (aka-William)
>>Quote:
Let's be honest. It's true that most people who are going to assault you with a knife are not going stand still with arm extended after a simple thrust and wait for you to disarm them.>>
Exactly the point! I've seen many people train this way. When they encounter someone, skilled or not, who won't devliver a blow and then stand still, they're lost.
>>>Quote:
By the same token, most people who are going to assault you with a knife don't know "flow" from a hole in the ground. No sense of flowing at all. More like a series of unrealated, stacato movements one following rapidly after the next. Sometimes.>>>
This is just semantics. My definition of "flow" is any type of continuous movement. smooth and continuous or short & erratic staccato. Pumping into the midsection, shanking away is a "flowing" movement to me.
>>Quote:
Newbies with a knife are predictable.
DANGEROUS but predictable. >>>
Not always predictable, but yes, dangerous none the less.
I've encountered "skilled" people who have trouble with newbies. Why? They get too used to the angle delivery system of what ever they study. When something comes at them from a perdictable angle they are used to...no problem. When all of a sudden a newbie isn't playing the angles but instead is flailling and coming at weird angles they start having problems. You got to mix it up.
William
**************************************************************
Posted by lKlawson:
>>>Ted T. wrote:
My next step turned out to be an exploration of WWII cqc and their (FAS) methods. These I like and along with the control methods of modern policework, gave me, I believe, a working sylabus with some hope for success. >>>
You might also look into some of the Western Arts. Instructors like Keating, Pete Kautz, Dwight McLemore, and James Loriega. Expand with Western blade concepts from Historic Fensing (as opposed to Sport Fensing with flicky bits of wire) by such instructors as Maestro Ramone Martinez and the like.
It's a whole 'nuther world.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk Lawson
******************************************************************
Posted by TheBcollector :
>>>" You might also look into some of the Western Arts. Instructors like Keating, Pete Kautz, Dwight McLemore, and James Loriega. ">>>
Pekiti-Tirsia, Ray Floro System, Shivworks' SouthNarc Reverse Grip and a regular lecture of the Pendecost book are good tools too.
******************************************************************
Posted by Guitarzan56:
William,
I couldn't agree with you more. Your initial post is almost word-for-word what I posted in a self-defense forum a few years back.
*****************************************************************
Posted by The real William (aka-William)
>>>Quote:
After 20 yrs of knife defense foolishness, I took arnis training to see if they had a more realistic approach and indeed they did, in teh attack. But even then, the basics were covered in two seasons and after that the system started to get as cluttered with artsy Jackie Chan bollocks ™ as much as any other ma. Still it gave me a realistic attack to start to prepare a realistic defense.>>>
Like anything else, there is good FMA out there, and there is total crap...and a whole continuum in between. Not to long ago I had a group that wanted to bring me in to do some training. I started talking with them about what I cover and when I got to footwork (which is huge in my book), The response I got was; "There is footwork in the FMA systems?" And they've been teaching Arnis. Now I pull from a lot of systems, but this was a huge flag in my book for the folks who have been training there.
>>>Quote:
my sensei was told about it and got so insecure that at the next class I attended with him, he did his old six moves on the frozen attack technique with me as uke and tossed me all over and nearly broke my elbow and wrist. The guys who had been to my seminar were able to see the fallicies of the frozen 'do this, do this, and then do this' style so I felt it was worth it.>>>
I'm glad you were able to open some eyes. You have to be able to look outside the box...to use an over used phrase.
A related incident: I was teaching out of a local Karate school last summer and one of the owners/Senseis instructors was hanging around to watch what we do. She was getting really interested so I started talking with her. She brought up the topic of knife defense so I asked her to show me what she knew. She kept trying to do the X-block on a number of attacks. Then I explained to her why that's not a good idea and showed her why. Again, she had worked the freeze frame techniques. When I started "flowing" and cutting out, her eyes got about the size of dinner plates when the connection was made. She blamed her inability to counter on herself, and then commeted that "Sensi" could make it work. A week later he jacked up the monthy fee by over 500%. Basically asking me to leave without asking me to leave. Obviously he found out and wasn't happy about it. But hey, like I said, it's a peeve of mine.
William
*******************************************************************
Posted by The real William (aka-William)
>>>Quote:
I couldn't agree with you more. Your initial post is almost word-for-word what I posted in a self-defense forum a few years back.>>>
Cool.
One of the last times I posted it was on Defend.net back in Aug. of 2002. Though I may have posted it on another site that Spanky moderated later then that. Spanky, what is that other site?
William
***********************************************************************
Posted by Norm:
Love the post!!
And I agree with it whole heartedly.
We have a saying when it comes to knife fighting. The best you can hope for in a knife fight is that you are going to the hospital and the other guy is going to the morgue.
In other words, in a knife fight you are going to get cut.
I know I still have a very long way to go in my weapons/knife training, but I can't help compare it to the training that I used to do when I was studying traditional martial arts. To put it simply, if I had to defend from a weapon back then I wouldn't be here typing this today.
PS: If you don't have footwork in any form of FMA then you aren't doing FMA.
************************************************************************
Posted by The real William (aka- William)
>>>Quote:
...I can't help compare it to the training that I used to do when I was studying traditional martial arts. To put it simply, if I had to defend from a weapon back then I wouldn't be here typing this today.>>>
I have heard this alot. One of my current students is a former Marine, LEO, and a Hopkido practitioner of over 12+ years. None of the knife defenses that he learned in all that time have been effective against what we (and any good weapons based system should) teach. Again, freeze frame, zero energy training is what they practiced. He's said it many times, and it echoes your statement above.
Quote:
PS: If you don't have footwork in any form of FMA then you aren't doing FMA.
Amen to that brother!!
~AND~ If you aren't working footwork heavily in any system you train, you should be asking why??!!
William
***********************************************************************
Couple of posts about an over weight FFA instuctor claiming to have formed his own system after 10 years of training have been omitted. Pointless comments about his weight etc…
Folling is an explanation of a technique exhibited on this persons web site.
***********************************************************************
Posted by Ted T.:
First attack (but applies generally to all the "attacks") - knife arm is extended and held frozen while defender slides behind him, not at all possible in a dynamic context.
No reaction from the attacker when he is cut. What good is it to learn how to cut a dummy?
Second attack - while he clears the knife with his left hand, his right goes out for coffee and a read of the local newspaper. Attacker is still in position when the hand gets back and closes for the cut.
In general - once you have stopped the lethal attack as he would have done with the first deganging cuts, if the camera shows you are following him, moving closer to him so you can keep cutting, kiss your life outside of jail good-bye. He is committing a homicide to continue cutting like he does. He will have no legal justification.
If your s-d does not include the legal aftermath, it is not complete!
************************************************************************
Posted by Norm:
I'm a little under the weather so I might make as much sense as I would like but here it goes.......
OK, here's my peeve about it. How many people out there form a 'new' system that really shouldn't be.
I've been training for the past 15 years. I'm not about to go out there and create a new system. Personally I feel that I don't even have a right to. There is still way too much out there for me to learn before I would ever consider that (maybe when I'm 90 I might have learned and matured enough to do that).
A lot of people out there seem to be creating 'new' systems that just seems to be their own personal philosophy of what they are studying. And unfortunately there are people out there who do it as a marketing ploy. So they now have this 'new and improved' system that they developed to drop someone in 2 seconds.
As for the video, when someone cuts you with a knife your body is going to react even if you don't want it to. After every single shot someone takes, their body reacts to the impact (unless you are cut with a surgical steel blade or something along those lines).
Personally I would like to see the video done over with the guy reacting to the different cuts and the 'defender' continuing to work his techniques off of the body reactions.
When I stopped training in TMA and started the Kali training, it was an eye opener. I had a hard time dealing with the concept that they kept moving away from me. Now I look to it as what new openings are created by their biomechanical reactions and have fun with it.
************************************************************************
Posted by The real William (aka – William)
>>>Quote:
A lot of people out there seem to be creating 'new' systems that just seems to be their own personal philosophy of what they are studying. And unfortunately there are people out there who do it as a marketing ploy. So they now have this 'new and improved' system that they developed to drop someone in 2 seconds>>>>.
Good points, and I think that a lot follow the marketing angle. Or, they've spent a little time in art-X, and a little time in art-Y, and then combine them to make the new and improved, even deadlier art-Z (since they can't take anyone the distance in X & Y).
I teach my PTK/FMA and my Thai classes seperatley. But after a while students find that they start to blend together very well. It makes for a different but very effective animal. I could blend the two to come up with my new & improved system of Kalithai or Thaikali I don't need to and I never will.
>>>Quote:
when someone cuts you with a knife your body is going to react even if you don't want it to. After every single shot someone takes, their body reacts to the impact (unless you are cut with a surgical steel blade or something along those lines).
Personally I would like to see the video done over with the guy reacting to the different cuts and the 'defender' continuing to work his techniques off of the body reactions.>>>
I've only had one FFA instructor who didn't train this way (and I wasn't there long). Even in my Thai & KK training we would work off of the opponents reactions to attacks or counter attacks.
William
***********************************************************************
Posted by The real William (aka – William)
>>>Quote:
In general - once you have stopped the lethal attack as he would have done with the first deganging cuts, if the camera shows you are following him, moving closer to him so you can keep cutting, kiss your life outside of jail good-bye. He is committing a homicide to continue cutting like he does>>>
Hence one of the reasons for the three beat/hit rule. (in general) If you've hit or incapacitate them in the first couple of beats, disengage for partially that reason. To continue gutting would not go over with courts or jury.
William
********************************************************************
Posted by Norm:
In the lovely state/tyranny of New York you are allowed one blow per blow. So in other words, if someone hits you once, and you hit them twice then you can can be charged and arrested for assualt. Doesn't matter who starts it either.
At one time I was the one who witnessed and broke up a fight at work. The police officer explained it to me and one of the guys involved in the altercation since there was an issue of him being fired. He lost his job but he did qualify for unemployment (the other guy started by grabbing him by the throat).
***************************************************************************
Posted by The real William (aka – William)
>>>Quote:
In the lovely state/tyranny of New York you are allowed one blow per blow. So in other words, if someone hits you once, and you hit them twice then you can can be charged and arrested for assualt. Doesn't matter who starts it either.>>>
That's a tough one. Most officers that I've worked with indicated that they will exercise a bit of discretion in a situation. If a person is defending themselves from a known trouble maker or a person being a prick and being disrespectful to the officer in the aftermath, they may be inclined to overlook the few extra blows that you threw. Now, that's not going to be so easy if you defend yourself with a blade. If you haven't been able to walk away from the incident (no witnesses and such: Disclaimer=not that I'm advocating that), then there will be an inquiry and court time in your future. And the officers discretionary window is pretty much closed on that one. Same goes for knife carry. If you indicate it's a "tool", it's of a reasonable size (not a 10"+ Bowie or have spikes & nucks), and you're being respectful, good chance they will let you keep it. If your being a dick wad and/or are a known trouble maker, at the very least you can kiss it goodbye.
If the incident involves my being open handed and the attacker has the blade, if I can't vacate and I get control, you better believe I will be breaking, smashing, kneeing, and hitting for all I'm worth until they are down. I don't care how many times I hit the mo-fo. I'll happily deal with that later.
As far as the Three beat rule of thumb, it pertains more to knife on knife. The longer you're in close range, the percentages of your taking a hit go up dramatically. Also, just because you hit a vital doesn't mean they are going to drop the weapon, or drop themselves immediately. It's not uncommon for a person not to realize they've been slashed for a few seconds....more then enough time to counter attack. Unless you are going to smother them=tying them up ,or taking them down (with control), you better range back out. Doesn't matter how good you think you are. Yes, I know knife to knife doesn't happen much, but it's just one aspect of training for when the U-know-what hits the fan. The other aspect of the three beat rule is that it also, in a manner of speaking, gives you a shut off or disengaging option. Instead of standing there slashing and thrusting the person 30 times, you hit and get out. Easier to explain a couple of hits in self defense then it is to explain twenty five. Also, three beats doesn't necessarily mean slash-slash-slash, or thrust-thrust-thrust ect..., it might be a parry, hit, and disruption for exiting cleanly.
Now, don't take this rule as dogma, there should always be flexibility to react to a given situation with appropriate and needed force. It's a guideline, not a law. A lot of it boils down to control, control comes with continuous, intensive, realistic training. As realistic as you can get with out actually killing or maiming each other.
William
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Thread in process….
William
***********************************************************************
Posted by Deadmanwalking:
Thank You The Real William!
I try to explain that to people all the time, that knives are to be taken very seriously and no one ever believes me.
**********************************************************************
Posted by Ray Nelson:
*sniff*
I love you, man!
Great posts, should be required reading for anyone going into weapons training or disarms in M.A.
Respectfully,
Ray Nelson
***************************************************************
Posted by lKlawson:
>>>The real William wrote:
98% of the knife disarms and counters that were taught were unrealistic (to be nice) to say the least. Even deadly if you happen to be facing someone who really knows how to use a blade. >>>
True.
>>>The real William wrote:
One of the differences was that he was used to practicing the old --- person one thrusts or slashes and freezes. Person two works his technique. Once he tried in a flowing manner where the opponent isn’t going to freeze for you but instead is going to flow and try to take you out… a whole new world was opened up to him.>>>
Let's be honest. It's true that most people who are going to assault you with a knife are not going stand still with arm extended after a simple thrust and wait for you to disarm them.
By the same token, most people who are going to assault you with a knife don't know "flow" from a hole in the ground. No sense of flowing at all. More like a series of unrealated, stacato movements one following rapidly after the next. Sometimes.
Newbies with a knife are predictable.
DANGEROUS but predictable.
As an example, they're often going to use wide, horizontal slashes in an effort to "keep you back." Works too. Them slashes can be hard to deal with.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
*********************************************************************
Posted by Ted T.
>>Quote:
I have to admit that in previous arts that I had studied (before I got into the Filipino arts and a couple of real life situations) 98% of the knife disarms and counters that were taught were unrealistic (to be nice) to say the least. Even deadly if you happen to be facing someone who really knows how to use a blade.>>>
Great essay!
My only exception is that your opponent doesn't have to be "someone who really knows how to use a blade." An enraged amateur with no training can gut out a martial artist, as we know.
After 20 yrs of knife defense foolishness, I took arnis training to see if they had a more realistic approach and indeed they did, in teh attack. But even then, the basics were covered in two seasons and after that the system started to get as cluttered with artsy Jackie Chan bollocks ™ as much as any other ma. Still it gave me a realistic attack to start to prepare a realistic defense.
My next step turned out to be an exploration of WWII cqc and their (FAS) methods. These I like and along with the control methods of modern policework, gave me, I believe, a working sylabus with some hope for success.
I remember taking a bunch of guys thru a seminar on knife defense in our region. I started with the old 'give em a marker pen and tell them to cut their opponent to shreds however they liked' drill and of course, everyone was dead inside 60 seconds. Big eyes all around!! Then we got down to work on feasibility studies of how to manage the wildness of such a situation. A great day was had by all, but I paid hard for it...my sensei was told about it and got so insecure that at the next class I attended with him, he did his old six moves on the frozen attack technique with me as uke and tossed me all over and nearly broke my elbow and wrist. The guys who had been to my seminar were able to see the fallicies of the frozen 'do this, do this, and then do this' style so I felt it was worth it.
_________________
Ted Truscott
*********************************************************************
Posted by the real William (aka-William)
>>Quote:
Let's be honest. It's true that most people who are going to assault you with a knife are not going stand still with arm extended after a simple thrust and wait for you to disarm them.>>
Exactly the point! I've seen many people train this way. When they encounter someone, skilled or not, who won't devliver a blow and then stand still, they're lost.
>>>Quote:
By the same token, most people who are going to assault you with a knife don't know "flow" from a hole in the ground. No sense of flowing at all. More like a series of unrealated, stacato movements one following rapidly after the next. Sometimes.>>>
This is just semantics. My definition of "flow" is any type of continuous movement. smooth and continuous or short & erratic staccato. Pumping into the midsection, shanking away is a "flowing" movement to me.
>>Quote:
Newbies with a knife are predictable.
DANGEROUS but predictable. >>>
Not always predictable, but yes, dangerous none the less.
I've encountered "skilled" people who have trouble with newbies. Why? They get too used to the angle delivery system of what ever they study. When something comes at them from a perdictable angle they are used to...no problem. When all of a sudden a newbie isn't playing the angles but instead is flailling and coming at weird angles they start having problems. You got to mix it up.
William
**************************************************************
Posted by lKlawson:
>>>Ted T. wrote:
My next step turned out to be an exploration of WWII cqc and their (FAS) methods. These I like and along with the control methods of modern policework, gave me, I believe, a working sylabus with some hope for success. >>>
You might also look into some of the Western Arts. Instructors like Keating, Pete Kautz, Dwight McLemore, and James Loriega. Expand with Western blade concepts from Historic Fensing (as opposed to Sport Fensing with flicky bits of wire) by such instructors as Maestro Ramone Martinez and the like.
It's a whole 'nuther world.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk Lawson
******************************************************************
Posted by TheBcollector :
>>>" You might also look into some of the Western Arts. Instructors like Keating, Pete Kautz, Dwight McLemore, and James Loriega. ">>>
Pekiti-Tirsia, Ray Floro System, Shivworks' SouthNarc Reverse Grip and a regular lecture of the Pendecost book are good tools too.
******************************************************************
Posted by Guitarzan56:
William,
I couldn't agree with you more. Your initial post is almost word-for-word what I posted in a self-defense forum a few years back.
*****************************************************************
Posted by The real William (aka-William)
>>>Quote:
After 20 yrs of knife defense foolishness, I took arnis training to see if they had a more realistic approach and indeed they did, in teh attack. But even then, the basics were covered in two seasons and after that the system started to get as cluttered with artsy Jackie Chan bollocks ™ as much as any other ma. Still it gave me a realistic attack to start to prepare a realistic defense.>>>
Like anything else, there is good FMA out there, and there is total crap...and a whole continuum in between. Not to long ago I had a group that wanted to bring me in to do some training. I started talking with them about what I cover and when I got to footwork (which is huge in my book), The response I got was; "There is footwork in the FMA systems?" And they've been teaching Arnis. Now I pull from a lot of systems, but this was a huge flag in my book for the folks who have been training there.
>>>Quote:
my sensei was told about it and got so insecure that at the next class I attended with him, he did his old six moves on the frozen attack technique with me as uke and tossed me all over and nearly broke my elbow and wrist. The guys who had been to my seminar were able to see the fallicies of the frozen 'do this, do this, and then do this' style so I felt it was worth it.>>>
I'm glad you were able to open some eyes. You have to be able to look outside the box...to use an over used phrase.
A related incident: I was teaching out of a local Karate school last summer and one of the owners/Senseis instructors was hanging around to watch what we do. She was getting really interested so I started talking with her. She brought up the topic of knife defense so I asked her to show me what she knew. She kept trying to do the X-block on a number of attacks. Then I explained to her why that's not a good idea and showed her why. Again, she had worked the freeze frame techniques. When I started "flowing" and cutting out, her eyes got about the size of dinner plates when the connection was made. She blamed her inability to counter on herself, and then commeted that "Sensi" could make it work. A week later he jacked up the monthy fee by over 500%. Basically asking me to leave without asking me to leave. Obviously he found out and wasn't happy about it. But hey, like I said, it's a peeve of mine.
William
*******************************************************************
Posted by The real William (aka-William)
>>>Quote:
I couldn't agree with you more. Your initial post is almost word-for-word what I posted in a self-defense forum a few years back.>>>
Cool.
One of the last times I posted it was on Defend.net back in Aug. of 2002. Though I may have posted it on another site that Spanky moderated later then that. Spanky, what is that other site?
William
***********************************************************************
Posted by Norm:
Love the post!!
And I agree with it whole heartedly.
We have a saying when it comes to knife fighting. The best you can hope for in a knife fight is that you are going to the hospital and the other guy is going to the morgue.
In other words, in a knife fight you are going to get cut.
I know I still have a very long way to go in my weapons/knife training, but I can't help compare it to the training that I used to do when I was studying traditional martial arts. To put it simply, if I had to defend from a weapon back then I wouldn't be here typing this today.
PS: If you don't have footwork in any form of FMA then you aren't doing FMA.
************************************************************************
Posted by The real William (aka- William)
>>>Quote:
...I can't help compare it to the training that I used to do when I was studying traditional martial arts. To put it simply, if I had to defend from a weapon back then I wouldn't be here typing this today.>>>
I have heard this alot. One of my current students is a former Marine, LEO, and a Hopkido practitioner of over 12+ years. None of the knife defenses that he learned in all that time have been effective against what we (and any good weapons based system should) teach. Again, freeze frame, zero energy training is what they practiced. He's said it many times, and it echoes your statement above.
Quote:
PS: If you don't have footwork in any form of FMA then you aren't doing FMA.
Amen to that brother!!
~AND~ If you aren't working footwork heavily in any system you train, you should be asking why??!!
William
***********************************************************************
Couple of posts about an over weight FFA instuctor claiming to have formed his own system after 10 years of training have been omitted. Pointless comments about his weight etc…
Folling is an explanation of a technique exhibited on this persons web site.
***********************************************************************
Posted by Ted T.:
First attack (but applies generally to all the "attacks") - knife arm is extended and held frozen while defender slides behind him, not at all possible in a dynamic context.
No reaction from the attacker when he is cut. What good is it to learn how to cut a dummy?
Second attack - while he clears the knife with his left hand, his right goes out for coffee and a read of the local newspaper. Attacker is still in position when the hand gets back and closes for the cut.
In general - once you have stopped the lethal attack as he would have done with the first deganging cuts, if the camera shows you are following him, moving closer to him so you can keep cutting, kiss your life outside of jail good-bye. He is committing a homicide to continue cutting like he does. He will have no legal justification.
If your s-d does not include the legal aftermath, it is not complete!
************************************************************************
Posted by Norm:
I'm a little under the weather so I might make as much sense as I would like but here it goes.......
OK, here's my peeve about it. How many people out there form a 'new' system that really shouldn't be.
I've been training for the past 15 years. I'm not about to go out there and create a new system. Personally I feel that I don't even have a right to. There is still way too much out there for me to learn before I would ever consider that (maybe when I'm 90 I might have learned and matured enough to do that).
A lot of people out there seem to be creating 'new' systems that just seems to be their own personal philosophy of what they are studying. And unfortunately there are people out there who do it as a marketing ploy. So they now have this 'new and improved' system that they developed to drop someone in 2 seconds.
As for the video, when someone cuts you with a knife your body is going to react even if you don't want it to. After every single shot someone takes, their body reacts to the impact (unless you are cut with a surgical steel blade or something along those lines).
Personally I would like to see the video done over with the guy reacting to the different cuts and the 'defender' continuing to work his techniques off of the body reactions.
When I stopped training in TMA and started the Kali training, it was an eye opener. I had a hard time dealing with the concept that they kept moving away from me. Now I look to it as what new openings are created by their biomechanical reactions and have fun with it.
************************************************************************
Posted by The real William (aka – William)
>>>Quote:
A lot of people out there seem to be creating 'new' systems that just seems to be their own personal philosophy of what they are studying. And unfortunately there are people out there who do it as a marketing ploy. So they now have this 'new and improved' system that they developed to drop someone in 2 seconds>>>>.
Good points, and I think that a lot follow the marketing angle. Or, they've spent a little time in art-X, and a little time in art-Y, and then combine them to make the new and improved, even deadlier art-Z (since they can't take anyone the distance in X & Y).
I teach my PTK/FMA and my Thai classes seperatley. But after a while students find that they start to blend together very well. It makes for a different but very effective animal. I could blend the two to come up with my new & improved system of Kalithai or Thaikali I don't need to and I never will.
>>>Quote:
when someone cuts you with a knife your body is going to react even if you don't want it to. After every single shot someone takes, their body reacts to the impact (unless you are cut with a surgical steel blade or something along those lines).
Personally I would like to see the video done over with the guy reacting to the different cuts and the 'defender' continuing to work his techniques off of the body reactions.>>>
I've only had one FFA instructor who didn't train this way (and I wasn't there long). Even in my Thai & KK training we would work off of the opponents reactions to attacks or counter attacks.
William
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Posted by The real William (aka – William)
>>>Quote:
In general - once you have stopped the lethal attack as he would have done with the first deganging cuts, if the camera shows you are following him, moving closer to him so you can keep cutting, kiss your life outside of jail good-bye. He is committing a homicide to continue cutting like he does>>>
Hence one of the reasons for the three beat/hit rule. (in general) If you've hit or incapacitate them in the first couple of beats, disengage for partially that reason. To continue gutting would not go over with courts or jury.
William
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Posted by Norm:
In the lovely state/tyranny of New York you are allowed one blow per blow. So in other words, if someone hits you once, and you hit them twice then you can can be charged and arrested for assualt. Doesn't matter who starts it either.
At one time I was the one who witnessed and broke up a fight at work. The police officer explained it to me and one of the guys involved in the altercation since there was an issue of him being fired. He lost his job but he did qualify for unemployment (the other guy started by grabbing him by the throat).
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Posted by The real William (aka – William)
>>>Quote:
In the lovely state/tyranny of New York you are allowed one blow per blow. So in other words, if someone hits you once, and you hit them twice then you can can be charged and arrested for assualt. Doesn't matter who starts it either.>>>
That's a tough one. Most officers that I've worked with indicated that they will exercise a bit of discretion in a situation. If a person is defending themselves from a known trouble maker or a person being a prick and being disrespectful to the officer in the aftermath, they may be inclined to overlook the few extra blows that you threw. Now, that's not going to be so easy if you defend yourself with a blade. If you haven't been able to walk away from the incident (no witnesses and such: Disclaimer=not that I'm advocating that), then there will be an inquiry and court time in your future. And the officers discretionary window is pretty much closed on that one. Same goes for knife carry. If you indicate it's a "tool", it's of a reasonable size (not a 10"+ Bowie or have spikes & nucks), and you're being respectful, good chance they will let you keep it. If your being a dick wad and/or are a known trouble maker, at the very least you can kiss it goodbye.
If the incident involves my being open handed and the attacker has the blade, if I can't vacate and I get control, you better believe I will be breaking, smashing, kneeing, and hitting for all I'm worth until they are down. I don't care how many times I hit the mo-fo. I'll happily deal with that later.
As far as the Three beat rule of thumb, it pertains more to knife on knife. The longer you're in close range, the percentages of your taking a hit go up dramatically. Also, just because you hit a vital doesn't mean they are going to drop the weapon, or drop themselves immediately. It's not uncommon for a person not to realize they've been slashed for a few seconds....more then enough time to counter attack. Unless you are going to smother them=tying them up ,or taking them down (with control), you better range back out. Doesn't matter how good you think you are. Yes, I know knife to knife doesn't happen much, but it's just one aspect of training for when the U-know-what hits the fan. The other aspect of the three beat rule is that it also, in a manner of speaking, gives you a shut off or disengaging option. Instead of standing there slashing and thrusting the person 30 times, you hit and get out. Easier to explain a couple of hits in self defense then it is to explain twenty five. Also, three beats doesn't necessarily mean slash-slash-slash, or thrust-thrust-thrust ect..., it might be a parry, hit, and disruption for exiting cleanly.
Now, don't take this rule as dogma, there should always be flexibility to react to a given situation with appropriate and needed force. It's a guideline, not a law. A lot of it boils down to control, control comes with continuous, intensive, realistic training. As realistic as you can get with out actually killing or maiming each other.
William
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posted by Guro William Schultz at 6:32 PM
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