Real Combat based Martial Systems: Filipino & Thai
From Defend .net. Discussions on the evolution of an art as well as the real combat based systems of the Filipino and Thai cultures. These posts span a long time so you will notice some points used earlier showing up later.
William
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>>l weapons aloud but since MT doeswn't really train with weapons that could be a problem>>
>>What weapons does Krabi Krabong Use??>>
There are nine main weapons in Krabi Krabong. I am most familiar with single & double swords, knife, and the Mai Soks (I'll mess up anyone with a pair of Mai Soks....even you Falcon Boy ). There is also spear, bow and arrow, shield etc...
As ghost stated, MT has Krabi-Krabong. Or a better way of saying it is Krabi-Krabong has the open hand component of MT. Though "ring" MT is a modified form of original MT. I'll put my money on KK over TKD weaponry any day. One thing you have to remember about Systems like FMA and Krabi-Krabong is that the open hand and weapon movements go hand in hand. Open hand movements are derived directly from the use of weaponry. This is a characteristic of systems that are derived from actual warfare. Why?
First: Warfare is the use of weaponry, not open hand.
Two: Getting troops ready for battle as quickly as possible.
Teaching a system of weaponry and open hand together is faster and more efficient. And in the heat of battle, if your weapon gets broken or knocked out of your hand, you can keep flowing to open hand and eventually pick up another weapon (if available) with out thinking (i.e. shifting gears). Teaching one form of open hand, and then teaching weapons that are based off of different mechanics is a good sign that it was just added to the system for the sake of having a "weapons component". Most likely an original open hand system that added weapons later. Not a "war art". Plus taking 20 years to get good at a martial art is useless when defending your country from invaders. If you lose a battle with heavy casualties, are you going to be able to wait 5, 8, 10, 15, or 20 years to replenish your ranks? A sign of a good system is one that can get you proficient in a short period of time.
Today, people have the luxury of taking the time to learn different arts that take many years of training to get good. People who do these arts generally scoff at systems like FMA, KK, and MT that don't take long periods of time to get good at combatively, but I'll still put my money on the ones that are derived directly from combat systems.
In relation to the mindset that Falcon and Ghost were referring to, this might help you understand:
"This Apparent simplicity, on the surface of the art, reflects the underlying emotion inherent in it. That is the quick, economical destruction of the opponent. bearing in mind that Krabi Krabong, and its offspring Muay Thai, evolved from Thais defending their homeland and not wanton imperialism or inter-tribal conflict. Therefore, at the core of the Thai martial arts exists the belief that if fighting must take place, the wholesale destruction of the opponent is warranted - and in the quickest, most powerful fashion. It is due to this aspect that the Thais and their martial arts are so highly respected for their fighting spirit and ferocity. The Thai martial arts embody these emotions at their center but contain many complex movements requiring grace, agility and skill. Though based only on a few tenets - such as power, speed and simplicity - the art utilizes its techniques in combinations and variations of which there are endless permutations. The goal being the immediate, natural response to the attack with quick, decisive strikes to incapacitate expediently."
Though, the Thais generally don't talk smack, they are very humble but are willing to back up their arts anytime.
William
***************************************************************************************
>>But my point is that if the style is an evolutionary one, generally any good technique added will be recognized as one and will be added to the system, and most will agree to it.>>>
One example of this comes out of Kajukenbo. Sifu Al Dacascos decided (and was given permission) to add so called softer/flowing movements and techniques that he brought out of the Filipino arts as well as Kung-Fu to the system. He then re-named the style Wun Hop Kuen Do. Based off of Kajukenbo, but now different. He was quite successful with it on the fighting circuits back in the 70’s. He is always incorporating and evolving the system. When the first UFC’s hit the scene and showed the importance of good grappling skills, they really started hitting the mats and working that aspect. I give him credit, he is able to evolve and adapt to the times and not get stuck on “this is how it was done 200 years ago, so this how we do it now” mentality.
>>Like you say MT is static with its approach to ground fighting, indeed if it is added it will no doubt be renamed,>>
MT has ground techniques. After you get into the standing grappling (Muay Boran) and throw them to the ground, the moment they hit you round kick the beejeezes out of whatever’s available (Ok, technically it’s not grappling but…).
>>I think the filipino weapon systems evolve though may have nearly reached theyre evolutionary peak.>>
Yes and no. Some systems are much further along than others, but the FMA’s has always been about incorporating whatever is successful/useful from other systems. The countries location along prime shipping routes brought them into contact with many different cultures and fighting systems. The existence of many different tribes who would war against each other continually kept the multitude of fighting systems evolving. Insurrection against foreign occupiers for over 300 years, plus the Filipinos who were conscripted and taught to fight for the Spanish (on top of their indigenous fighting systems) against their brothers just added to their arsenal. Today, some of the FMA systems that are taught are not watered down. They are not far removed from the real-time combative fighting.
What you have to watch out for now is de-evolution. Some styles have become just stick systems. Their movements don't translate to the blade (easily or at all). I have trained with one GM who taught a good thrusting style in close quarters. Nice, short, nasty movements. A few years later I was able to get together with him again and he was now teaching hitting with the weapon from the same structure. Hitting is effective, but the thrusting was nastier and harder to counter. His explanation was that people were getting hurt in his seminars so he changed it. Those of us who had worked with him before knew this, but the newer folks thought the modified way was it. They walk away with a watered down version, which they then teach to others.
William
************************************************************************************
>>>Interesting how the fact that the physical positioning of a country has effected its MA development.>>>
On a small scale:
You train with and fight the same people all the time….you get real good at fighting THOSE people. When someone new walks in with some good skills, all of a sudden it may not be quite so easy. Many people get stuck into thinking they are bad asses because they kick butt in their Dojo all the time. But, when it goes down outside their Dojo (on the street or sport fighting), they sometimes find out quickly, surprisingly, painfully, and occasionally fatally that they weren’t. The ones that survive do one of two things, go into denial and hide back in their perfect world, or they look at what happened realistically and try to adapt and work on their weaknesses. Evolve.
On a larger scale:
If you were in a position to be in constant exposure from people from other cultures who had a different take on martial skills you will pick up things. My guess would be that sailors were generally a rough and rowdy crowd looking to let off some steam when they had time off the ships. Sh*t happens. There were also a lot of Pirate groups (Filipino) who were based on many of the islands (esp. southern PI) who would attack trade vessels (and probably just about everyone else) around the islands. And conversely, if you are warring with neighboring islands or foreign occupiers (for over three hundred years) on a regular basis, your skills will evolve (Or you die).
A very basic (and not the greatest) example:
Let’s see, I did this…I lived - he died. Ok, we’ll keep that one. Now Fred did that, and he died….ok, let’s modify or throw that one out.
So, bottom line:
*Exposure to other cultures
*Constant warring among tribes
*Fighting foreign occupiers
*Being trained to fight for the occupiers against other tribes (divide & conquer)
*Large-scale pirate activity
All this (and probably some things I’m missing) combined, worked to distill and evolve the fighting systems of the Philippines all the way up into this century. That’s why you still have systems that are not watered down available.
William
*************************************************************************************
>>>i find myself not thinking about what u were saying on the small scale its prolly something many ppl need to think about more. >>>
I think it’s a problem that many people overlook. You train/spar/fight with the same people all the time, you figure out their strategies, timing, strengths, and weaknesses. You get good at fighting THEM. Someone new (with some skill) walks into the picture and all of a sudden your getting a run for your money. Some of the more “sport” oriented systems are particularly prone to this. Not only do they start thinking their pretty bad (meaning real good), within their group/school, they think it transfers to over to the real world. I’ve personally seen quite a few people find out the hard way that they weren’t. Even the more reality-based systems are not immune to it – though generally to a lesser degree. The bottom line is to train and fight/spar with as many different people, from as many different schools/systems as possible. This way you learn to adapt your skills to different types of fighters (brawlers, technicians, runners, grounders etc….) with different attributes and skills.
Or, you could also just go out and start a lot of fights on the street, but that generally has more negative aspects to it than the positive one you might get out of it: _ _ _ _ _ (insert friends or spouses name), can you come bail me out? Been there, done that.
William
****************************************************************************
>>>Hello everyone. I don't practice escrima but I know what it is about and I read some books about it. My question: do you think Krabi Krabong is a valid system as well? I saw and read about it only and it seemed simple and straight forward (looked more straight forward than escrima to me) and quite effective. I also like the fact that they combine kicking techniques with stick techniques. Do escrima styles do that too?>>>
Is KK a valid system? Yes!
Is it simple & straight forward? Yes and no. Like Muay Thai, it's not a terribly complex system, but quite powerful and like anything else there are certain mechanics of movement that need to be trained and ingrained. As Chalambok pointed out, kicks are not used for just for the sake of kicking, certain movements and disruptions create openings for the the powerful Thai round kick and foot jabs. Kicks are used sparingly and strategically.
If you come from a strictly FMA background, KK can feel a little weird at first. But if you have trained in Muay Thai, KK will have a very familiar feel to it. Why is that? Muay Thai comes from the weaponry technique of KK. Problem is that few people in the states have been exposed to KK, and even to many in Thailand it's thought of as more of a ceremonial art. The open hand component of MT has been heavily emphasized as a national sport and that is what has made its way here. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, Muay Thai is extremely effective and proven.
One thing you have to remember about Systems like FMA and Krabi-Krabong is that the open hand and weapon movements go hand in hand. Open hand movements are derived directly from the use of weaponry technique. This is a characteristic of systems that are derived from actual warfare. Why?
First: Warfare is the use of weaponry, not open hand.
Two: Getting troops/warriors ready for battle as quickly as possible.
Teaching a system of weaponry and open hand together is faster and more efficient. And in the heat of battle, if your weapon gets broken or knocked out of your hand, you can keep flowing to open hand and with luck, eventually pick up another weapon with out thinking (i.e. shifting gears). Teaching one form of open hand, and then teaching weapons that are based off of different mechanics is a good sign that it was just added to the system for the sake of having a "weapons component". Most likely an original open hand system that added weapons later. Not a "war art". Plus taking 20 years to get good at a martial art is useless when defending your country from invaders. If you lose a battle with heavy casualties, are you going to be able to wait 5, 8, 10, 15, or 20 years to replenish your ranks? A sign of a good system is one that can get you proficient in a short period of time. The FMA's, Muay Thai/Krabi-Krabong do just that. I don't remember where I found this quote but it fits here:
" This Apparent simplicity, on the surface of the art, reflects the underlying emotion inherent in it. That is the quick, economical destruction of the opponent. bearing in mind that Krabi Krabong, and its offspring Muay Thai, evolved from Thais defending their homeland and not wanton imperialism or inter-tribal conflict. Therefore, at the core of the Thai martial arts exists the belief that if fighting must take place, the wholesale destruction of the opponent is warranted - and in the quickest, most powerful fashion. It is due to this aspect that the Thais and their martial arts are so highly respected for their fighting spirit and ferocity. Though based only on a few tenets - such as power, speed and simplicity - the art utilizes its techniques in combinations and variations of which there are endless permutations. The goal being the immediate, natural response to the attack with quick, decisive strikes to incapacitate expediently."
Today, people have the luxury of taking the time to learn different arts that take many years of training to get good at. Some people who do these arts scoff at systems like FMA, KK, and MT that don't take long periods of time to get good at combatively, but I'll still put my money on the ones that are derived directly from combat systems. Good, basic, effective systems.
William
William
********************************************************************************
>>l weapons aloud but since MT doeswn't really train with weapons that could be a problem>>
>>What weapons does Krabi Krabong Use??>>
There are nine main weapons in Krabi Krabong. I am most familiar with single & double swords, knife, and the Mai Soks (I'll mess up anyone with a pair of Mai Soks....even you Falcon Boy ). There is also spear, bow and arrow, shield etc...
As ghost stated, MT has Krabi-Krabong. Or a better way of saying it is Krabi-Krabong has the open hand component of MT. Though "ring" MT is a modified form of original MT. I'll put my money on KK over TKD weaponry any day. One thing you have to remember about Systems like FMA and Krabi-Krabong is that the open hand and weapon movements go hand in hand. Open hand movements are derived directly from the use of weaponry. This is a characteristic of systems that are derived from actual warfare. Why?
First: Warfare is the use of weaponry, not open hand.
Two: Getting troops ready for battle as quickly as possible.
Teaching a system of weaponry and open hand together is faster and more efficient. And in the heat of battle, if your weapon gets broken or knocked out of your hand, you can keep flowing to open hand and eventually pick up another weapon (if available) with out thinking (i.e. shifting gears). Teaching one form of open hand, and then teaching weapons that are based off of different mechanics is a good sign that it was just added to the system for the sake of having a "weapons component". Most likely an original open hand system that added weapons later. Not a "war art". Plus taking 20 years to get good at a martial art is useless when defending your country from invaders. If you lose a battle with heavy casualties, are you going to be able to wait 5, 8, 10, 15, or 20 years to replenish your ranks? A sign of a good system is one that can get you proficient in a short period of time.
Today, people have the luxury of taking the time to learn different arts that take many years of training to get good. People who do these arts generally scoff at systems like FMA, KK, and MT that don't take long periods of time to get good at combatively, but I'll still put my money on the ones that are derived directly from combat systems.
In relation to the mindset that Falcon and Ghost were referring to, this might help you understand:
"This Apparent simplicity, on the surface of the art, reflects the underlying emotion inherent in it. That is the quick, economical destruction of the opponent. bearing in mind that Krabi Krabong, and its offspring Muay Thai, evolved from Thais defending their homeland and not wanton imperialism or inter-tribal conflict. Therefore, at the core of the Thai martial arts exists the belief that if fighting must take place, the wholesale destruction of the opponent is warranted - and in the quickest, most powerful fashion. It is due to this aspect that the Thais and their martial arts are so highly respected for their fighting spirit and ferocity. The Thai martial arts embody these emotions at their center but contain many complex movements requiring grace, agility and skill. Though based only on a few tenets - such as power, speed and simplicity - the art utilizes its techniques in combinations and variations of which there are endless permutations. The goal being the immediate, natural response to the attack with quick, decisive strikes to incapacitate expediently."
Though, the Thais generally don't talk smack, they are very humble but are willing to back up their arts anytime.
William
***************************************************************************************
>>But my point is that if the style is an evolutionary one, generally any good technique added will be recognized as one and will be added to the system, and most will agree to it.>>>
One example of this comes out of Kajukenbo. Sifu Al Dacascos decided (and was given permission) to add so called softer/flowing movements and techniques that he brought out of the Filipino arts as well as Kung-Fu to the system. He then re-named the style Wun Hop Kuen Do. Based off of Kajukenbo, but now different. He was quite successful with it on the fighting circuits back in the 70’s. He is always incorporating and evolving the system. When the first UFC’s hit the scene and showed the importance of good grappling skills, they really started hitting the mats and working that aspect. I give him credit, he is able to evolve and adapt to the times and not get stuck on “this is how it was done 200 years ago, so this how we do it now” mentality.
>>Like you say MT is static with its approach to ground fighting, indeed if it is added it will no doubt be renamed,>>
MT has ground techniques. After you get into the standing grappling (Muay Boran) and throw them to the ground, the moment they hit you round kick the beejeezes out of whatever’s available (Ok, technically it’s not grappling but…).
>>I think the filipino weapon systems evolve though may have nearly reached theyre evolutionary peak.>>
Yes and no. Some systems are much further along than others, but the FMA’s has always been about incorporating whatever is successful/useful from other systems. The countries location along prime shipping routes brought them into contact with many different cultures and fighting systems. The existence of many different tribes who would war against each other continually kept the multitude of fighting systems evolving. Insurrection against foreign occupiers for over 300 years, plus the Filipinos who were conscripted and taught to fight for the Spanish (on top of their indigenous fighting systems) against their brothers just added to their arsenal. Today, some of the FMA systems that are taught are not watered down. They are not far removed from the real-time combative fighting.
What you have to watch out for now is de-evolution. Some styles have become just stick systems. Their movements don't translate to the blade (easily or at all). I have trained with one GM who taught a good thrusting style in close quarters. Nice, short, nasty movements. A few years later I was able to get together with him again and he was now teaching hitting with the weapon from the same structure. Hitting is effective, but the thrusting was nastier and harder to counter. His explanation was that people were getting hurt in his seminars so he changed it. Those of us who had worked with him before knew this, but the newer folks thought the modified way was it. They walk away with a watered down version, which they then teach to others.
William
************************************************************************************
>>>Interesting how the fact that the physical positioning of a country has effected its MA development.>>>
On a small scale:
You train with and fight the same people all the time….you get real good at fighting THOSE people. When someone new walks in with some good skills, all of a sudden it may not be quite so easy. Many people get stuck into thinking they are bad asses because they kick butt in their Dojo all the time. But, when it goes down outside their Dojo (on the street or sport fighting), they sometimes find out quickly, surprisingly, painfully, and occasionally fatally that they weren’t. The ones that survive do one of two things, go into denial and hide back in their perfect world, or they look at what happened realistically and try to adapt and work on their weaknesses. Evolve.
On a larger scale:
If you were in a position to be in constant exposure from people from other cultures who had a different take on martial skills you will pick up things. My guess would be that sailors were generally a rough and rowdy crowd looking to let off some steam when they had time off the ships. Sh*t happens. There were also a lot of Pirate groups (Filipino) who were based on many of the islands (esp. southern PI) who would attack trade vessels (and probably just about everyone else) around the islands. And conversely, if you are warring with neighboring islands or foreign occupiers (for over three hundred years) on a regular basis, your skills will evolve (Or you die).
A very basic (and not the greatest) example:
Let’s see, I did this…I lived - he died. Ok, we’ll keep that one. Now Fred did that, and he died….ok, let’s modify or throw that one out.
So, bottom line:
*Exposure to other cultures
*Constant warring among tribes
*Fighting foreign occupiers
*Being trained to fight for the occupiers against other tribes (divide & conquer)
*Large-scale pirate activity
All this (and probably some things I’m missing) combined, worked to distill and evolve the fighting systems of the Philippines all the way up into this century. That’s why you still have systems that are not watered down available.
William
*************************************************************************************
>>>i find myself not thinking about what u were saying on the small scale its prolly something many ppl need to think about more. >>>
I think it’s a problem that many people overlook. You train/spar/fight with the same people all the time, you figure out their strategies, timing, strengths, and weaknesses. You get good at fighting THEM. Someone new (with some skill) walks into the picture and all of a sudden your getting a run for your money. Some of the more “sport” oriented systems are particularly prone to this. Not only do they start thinking their pretty bad (meaning real good), within their group/school, they think it transfers to over to the real world. I’ve personally seen quite a few people find out the hard way that they weren’t. Even the more reality-based systems are not immune to it – though generally to a lesser degree. The bottom line is to train and fight/spar with as many different people, from as many different schools/systems as possible. This way you learn to adapt your skills to different types of fighters (brawlers, technicians, runners, grounders etc….) with different attributes and skills.
Or, you could also just go out and start a lot of fights on the street, but that generally has more negative aspects to it than the positive one you might get out of it: _ _ _ _ _ (insert friends or spouses name), can you come bail me out? Been there, done that.
William
****************************************************************************
>>>Hello everyone. I don't practice escrima but I know what it is about and I read some books about it. My question: do you think Krabi Krabong is a valid system as well? I saw and read about it only and it seemed simple and straight forward (looked more straight forward than escrima to me) and quite effective. I also like the fact that they combine kicking techniques with stick techniques. Do escrima styles do that too?>>>
Is KK a valid system? Yes!
Is it simple & straight forward? Yes and no. Like Muay Thai, it's not a terribly complex system, but quite powerful and like anything else there are certain mechanics of movement that need to be trained and ingrained. As Chalambok pointed out, kicks are not used for just for the sake of kicking, certain movements and disruptions create openings for the the powerful Thai round kick and foot jabs. Kicks are used sparingly and strategically.
If you come from a strictly FMA background, KK can feel a little weird at first. But if you have trained in Muay Thai, KK will have a very familiar feel to it. Why is that? Muay Thai comes from the weaponry technique of KK. Problem is that few people in the states have been exposed to KK, and even to many in Thailand it's thought of as more of a ceremonial art. The open hand component of MT has been heavily emphasized as a national sport and that is what has made its way here. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, Muay Thai is extremely effective and proven.
One thing you have to remember about Systems like FMA and Krabi-Krabong is that the open hand and weapon movements go hand in hand. Open hand movements are derived directly from the use of weaponry technique. This is a characteristic of systems that are derived from actual warfare. Why?
First: Warfare is the use of weaponry, not open hand.
Two: Getting troops/warriors ready for battle as quickly as possible.
Teaching a system of weaponry and open hand together is faster and more efficient. And in the heat of battle, if your weapon gets broken or knocked out of your hand, you can keep flowing to open hand and with luck, eventually pick up another weapon with out thinking (i.e. shifting gears). Teaching one form of open hand, and then teaching weapons that are based off of different mechanics is a good sign that it was just added to the system for the sake of having a "weapons component". Most likely an original open hand system that added weapons later. Not a "war art". Plus taking 20 years to get good at a martial art is useless when defending your country from invaders. If you lose a battle with heavy casualties, are you going to be able to wait 5, 8, 10, 15, or 20 years to replenish your ranks? A sign of a good system is one that can get you proficient in a short period of time. The FMA's, Muay Thai/Krabi-Krabong do just that. I don't remember where I found this quote but it fits here:
" This Apparent simplicity, on the surface of the art, reflects the underlying emotion inherent in it. That is the quick, economical destruction of the opponent. bearing in mind that Krabi Krabong, and its offspring Muay Thai, evolved from Thais defending their homeland and not wanton imperialism or inter-tribal conflict. Therefore, at the core of the Thai martial arts exists the belief that if fighting must take place, the wholesale destruction of the opponent is warranted - and in the quickest, most powerful fashion. It is due to this aspect that the Thais and their martial arts are so highly respected for their fighting spirit and ferocity. Though based only on a few tenets - such as power, speed and simplicity - the art utilizes its techniques in combinations and variations of which there are endless permutations. The goal being the immediate, natural response to the attack with quick, decisive strikes to incapacitate expediently."
Today, people have the luxury of taking the time to learn different arts that take many years of training to get good at. Some people who do these arts scoff at systems like FMA, KK, and MT that don't take long periods of time to get good at combatively, but I'll still put my money on the ones that are derived directly from combat systems. Good, basic, effective systems.
William
posted by Guro William Schultz at 9:42 AM
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