Kali, Arnis, Eskrima...the on going debate.

This debate is fairly common among the different Filipino Fighting systems. Since most all of the written history was destroyed during the Spanish occupation, no on can say for certain what the original terminology or history was. As I stated early on, I usually stay out of this debate but I did let myself get pulled into this one.

There is some mudslinging and some calling out went on, but I still feel some worth while debate occurred. Most of the really redundant or offensive posts have been re-moved.

William

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Thread started 6/9/03

Posted by Moromoro:

where the hell do you guys get these terms from...........???

destructions gunting......

iam from the philippines train in the philippines and i have never herd these terms.....
what crock is this......

what is MT as well????


terry
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Posted by krys:

Destructions - gunting....

I think this comes from californian martial arts.....


Never met a filipino martial artist who ever saw Panantukan in the islands.....



Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis

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Posted by Moromoro:
Destructions - gunting....


>>>Quote:
I think this comes from californian martial arts..... >>>



>>>Quote:
Never met a filipino martial artist who ever saw Panantukan in the islands..... >>>


EXACTLY, but most people in america buy the hype, they dont seem to realise that KALI and most names used in FMA in america are recent creations THEY like to believe in legends like the blind pricess and KALI ancient art and all that mumbo jumbo...

iam from mindanao i have never heard these terms mentioned!!!!!!

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Posted by Krys:
Here are some interesting thoughts on the mysterious art of Kali,
extract from:
NEW THEORIES ON THE ORIGINS OF ESKRIMA

By: Celestino C. Macachor
........
To muddle the issue further there are other amateur linguists in the FMA that theorize on certain Visayan words as the root of Kali. They say that Kali is related to many words, that means that this same word has connections with the following Visayan words:

Kalipay (Happiness), Kalibutan (Earth/World), Kalibog (Confusion), Kaliwat (Relatives/Ancestors/Heredity), Kalisud (Difficulty), Kalibanga (Diarrhea/LBM), Kalimotaw (Eye Pupil), Kaligo (Bath), Kalit (Sudden), Kalihim (Secretary) . . . okay let us disarrange the letters . . . Kilat (Thunder), Kilas (Agility) . . . and where and when did kris become kalis? What language is that? Esperanto?

For twenty-two years I have traveled the entire breadth of Mindanao as a Salesman while on the side searching in vain for the vaunted Kali man I've read so much in FMA books. Without luck, everywhere I went dodging bullets and 105-mm howitzers whistling past my ears, from Ipil, Zamboanga del Sur to boundaries of Bukidnon, Davao and Cotabato I always end up in a quagmire. I tried Ned's suggestion to search for him in a place noted for making bolos. Aside from their own version of native nipa wine called Pa-uroy, the town of Cantilan Surigao del Sur is also famous for their finely forged pinuti , but there is no one here who can handle the weapon with at least rudimentary skill. From Dumingag, I was referred to a Muslim bladesmith in Margosatubig, Zamboanga del Sur, but the poor artisan I encountered does not even know the word Kali. I was expecting to finally get the chance to meet an authentic Kali man in the person of GM Billy Baaclo of Ozamiz City. To my disappoint, he traced the lineage of his Abaniko de Sungkiti to Prancing Ybanez of Sibonga, Cebu. I did find an assortment of Barongs and authentic Krises in Lanao, but they were mostly ornamental. I tried to cajole the peddlers themselves to bring me to the Muslim swordsman, and what did I get? "Igso, banig na lang, walay Kali." (Brother, just buy my mat, no Kali). So where's the elusive Kali man?
..........


By the way I was told by Kali peoples about the art of firing coconuts in portable cannons (forgot the name they gave me, i'm serious they really claimed it) ... anybody is in it?


Mabuhay ang filipino Silat and Arnis.

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Posted by theKuntawman:
the kali issue is not about a name. there are people who name there philippine martial arts after karate, tae kwon do, jujitsu, even make up the names, like yaw yan (sayaw ng kamatayan). no body has a problem with that.

but there is a problem when you have a person, filipino OR foreigner, who tells the uneducated martial arts people that, kali is older, better, more complete etc, then the other filipino arts. and then a bigger problem, is when somebody says, that his art of kali IS the art of kali that we read about in the magazines and books.

then, which i think is funny, is how a non-tagalog speaker, tells us there is so many dialects of the filipino people, how do we know "kali" is not one of them?

so how do you? maybe tae-phil do is one of the filipino dialects too.

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Posted by Moromoro
>>Quote:
moromoro, your filipino elitism is tired.>>


well i dindnt think you cared


As kuntawman has stated its not about the name you can call it KALI all you want thats cool....

and hes right theres plenty of different types of names e.g escrido, Mig-Sune-Do, COJUKA, CAM-MASO.....


>>>Quote:
but there is a problem when you have a person, filipino OR foreigner, who tells the uneducated martial arts people that, kali is older, better, more complete etc, then the other filipino arts. and then a bigger problem, is when somebody says, that his art of kali IS the art of kali that we read about in the magazines and books.
Main myth is the kali lapulapu link......>>>

THIS IS THE PROBLEM..... Lucky this doesnt exist in the philippines but it is rampant in america thats to our good pal a JKD master
with all due respect he should do something to correct this...

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Posted by Humana:
From Kuntawman's website:

If you crave authentic Southeast Asian Martial Arts that are not watered down or training that is not compromised, then give us a call…

(1st art on the list... Filipino Kuntaw Karate!)

(Hmmm... Didn't know that Karate was a Tagalog word, sounds Karazy!)

(Authentic Southeast Asian Martial arts?? here's the list

Typhoon Karate is a combination of Chinese Kung Fu, 2 styles of Filipino Kuntaw (Gatdula and Boggs Lao), Southeast Asian-Style Kick-Boxing, Tae Kwon Do, Presas style Arnis, and Gatdula system Fighting Eskrima.


Typhoon Karate is the style developed by Punong Guro Mustafa Gatdula during the mid-1990s.

(Dayum thats ancient!)

Kuntaw is the family fighting system of our Head Instructor, Mustafa Maurice Gatdula. There is a great debate concerning the origin of Philippine Kuntaw, but most agree that Kuntaw originated in China, and arrived in the Southern Philippines through trade with Chinese sailors and emigrants. Kuntaw and its cousin art, Silat, are bare handed and blade-fighting arts practiced by the Moslems of that region
(Wheres your Proof? Is there a written record of this historical belief? You've made an effort to disprove what every other teacher believes accoring to what they were taught so what gives?) A little bending to try to authenticate your beliefs vs other instructors.

Gatdula-style Fighting Eskrima

The Gatdula system of Eskrima is called our “Fighting Eskrima”. We use the term “fighting Eskrima” to differentiate our system from the classical forms more popular today. While many styles of Eskrima employ several weapons throughout their curriculum, Gatdula’s Fighting Eskrima (GFE) specializes in only two weapons: the single stick and the single knife.

(You aren't putting a new name (fighting Eskrima) to describe an older style of Filipino combat are you??? thats a no, no.)

Point is, that the PI has no written history. People will always mold according to their personal beliefs and their own agenda. It is a name, nothing more. I even remember a post where you said you use the term Kali occasionally.

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Posted by William:

I've seen this debate pop up so many times on this and other forums that I have generally been in the habit of staying out of it.

Kali-Eskrima-Arnis, three different terms that refer to a very similar vein. The argument always gets thrown out that Kali is a word that can't be found or that words that have fragments of it are not the source. "It's an American thing", or "not of Philippine origin".What always seems to get overlooked is that Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish terms, not Filipino. They are only in use because of the Spanish occupation of the Philippines for 300+ years. What terms were used before that? Since most of the written history was destroyed by the Spanish, can you say for certain that Kali was never used? If you want to ride people for using the word Kali because it's "not of Philippine origin", then you better get on them for using Eskrima or Arnis, because they aren't of Philippine origin either.
If on the other hand, you are offended that it's sometimes referring to a "more complete" or "mother art", that's another thing.

BTW, I have two shows taped from the Philippines that refer to Kali on national television. One is Good Morning Asia, the other is a show called Gameplan. So, it's been used and heard nationally in PI.

It is what it is. My Kali will cut or crush reguardless of whether you believe in it or not.

William

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Poted by Humana2000:
Well said William, bythe way, the UFC type competition URCC that is held in the PI, regularlay has guys that fight under the Kali banner, or Dumog, or Yaw Yan. So yes it is known there.

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Posted by Krys:
>>>Quote:
What always seems to get overlooked is that Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish terms, not Filipino. They are only in use because of the Spanish occupation of the Philippines for 300+ years. What terms were used before that? Since most of the written history was destroyed by the Spanish, can you say for certain that Kali was never used? If >>>


The "Philippines islands" were never totally conquered by the spaniards.
The mountaineers of Luzon, lumads of Mindanao and muslims were never under direct control of the spaniards, so why do we not find the word kali in their language?

The different tribes of the Philippines engaged in warfare before the arrival of the spaniards. There are plenty of good filipino historians and anthropologists so why did none ever come up with this Kali?
I believe that our favorite kalifornian master should share his sources with this peoples, I am sure they would be interested by his fabulous knowledge.


This Kalifornian JKD master claims that the elusive art of Kali is practiced by the so called "moros" of the south. What tribe? The Tausugs? The Sama? The Yakan ? Show me one practicing Kali...
In Sulu? Where In sulu?
Can somebody give me an answer?

This is all nonsense and pure fantasy....

Mabuhay ang filipino Silat at Arnis.
Don't let them bring the arts down.....

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Posted by Humana2000:
I don't do inosanto system, in fact Ive fought some of his guys before, and found them to be arrogant and moer concerned about theyre lineage (Mr. Inosanto) than their skill. But... I do know that Mr. Inosanto did not make up the term Kali, in fact you other Pinoys know that as well. It was taught to him by not just one but several sources, and he's paying respect as to what he was taught. I dont agree with everything they teach, but im talking strictly about the word KALI here. The word was taken from the Maragtas along with the ten datu theory which for a long time was taken as the definitave work on the philippine pre-history. Yes it has been gleamed that now it more of a collection of legends than actual history. But along with Otley Beyer, this has been one of only a few attempts at disseminating the PI's rich pre-history. The main scientific theory is that the first Pinoy's came to Palawan and on to the PI, from Malaysia. The word Kali exists there in several forms. The Sri Vishaya Empire of Hindu origin has Kali as the goddess of war, and the Kathakali theatere drama which hosts many battle scenes. In fact Many culutres in the PI, are still lingually tamil based. It can be found there. If you look at traditional indian stick fighting Silambam, or kalaripayyatu there are suprisingly so many similarities to Filipino and indonesian martial arts it's scary. the native dialects of Palawan host the Word Kali, which refers to an outcast. There is also a village festival called Kali-Kalihan Festival held every november in the PI, celebrating Filipino arts and culture including the martial arts. Im not trying to justify that it is correct, and true. Just that the word does exist, and has many times martial connotations. I teach my guys, all of the theories that Ive learned of, encourage them to research for themselves, and make up there own mind. I guarantee, noone has a text that says it doesnt exist, why??? cause a written history doesnt exist. It is based upon legends, and word of mouth, and as filipinos you learn and respect what your ancestors, and elders teach you. I am speaking of history in general. I usually agree with the Kuntawman, but I think we need to give old inosanto a break, at least he had the balls to show the world an art that prior few knew existed. He also gave many wayward, young Pinoys me included a strong proud filipino warrior spsirit that we could look up to, and strive to perpetuate, so we didnt all have to take taekwondo or kung fu, and say look what we have, can we please be chinese?

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William posted:

>>>Quote:
What always seems to get overlooked is that Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish terms, not Filipino.....If you want to ride people for using the word Kali because it's "not of Philippine origin", then you better get on them for using Eskrima or Arnis, because they aren't of Philippine origin either >>>


And...


>>>Quote:
BTW, I have two shows taped from the Philippines that refer to Kali on national television. One is Good Morning Asia, the other is a show called Gameplan. So, it's been used and heard nationally in PI.>>>


It's interesting, of the five or six times I have brought up these two points with others on the "No Kali" bandwagon, I have yet to have anyone respond directly to them.




>>>Quote:
The "Philippines islands" were never totally conquered by the spaniards >>>


That is well understood. But they did control the majority of the country.


>>>Quote:
The mountaineers of Luzon, lumads of Mindanao and muslims were never under direct control of the spaniards, so why do we not find the word kali in their language? >>>


Maybe those groups never used that term. But that doesn't really mean much since the majority of the Islands were under Spanish control and cultural destruction. People were tortured and killed for breaking Spanish laws. If religious and martial practices are outlawed, punishable by torture or death, how long will they survive intact? Parents my not teach children or pass on certain things for fear of what could happen to them if they were caught. Now, I'm just speculating on this but I don't think it's that far off. I have read some of the accounts (from Spanish history) of what happened to native Filipinos during the occupation for breaking Spanish law, and the vast majority were quite heinous. All I am saying here is that it's not at all impossible for many things to have been lost over that time. Was the term Kali one of them? I can't say it was....and you can't say it wasn't.


>>>Quote:
The different tribes of the Philippines engaged in warfare before the arrival of the spaniards. There are plenty of good filipino historians and anthropologists so why did none ever come up with this Kali?>>>


Historians study history, usually written history. Since little to none survived, what do they have to go on? Word of mouth? Oral history is quite problematic and prone to either distortion (over time) or dieing out. What ever the pre-Spanish arts of war were called, I think it would be quite possible for it's term to die out over a hundred years let alone 300+ years of Spanish occupation.. If it wasn't originally called Kali, what was it called? It certainly wasn't Eskrima or Arnis. The fact that a large portion of the systems refereed to themselves as one or the other is a pretty good indication that the original terms were lost. If you don't know what it was called, how can you claim that it wasn't Kali (or anything else for that matter).


>>>Quote:
I believe that our favorite kalifornian master should share his sources with this peoples, I am sure they would be interested by his fabulous knowledge>>>


Well, I don't train under Mr. Inosanto. One of my instructors is an instructor under him, but then he was a highly placed instructor under Ernesto and then Roberto Presas and trained in the Philippines before he hooked up with him. I like Humana teach my students what I was taught, but encourage them to research for themselves.

I have said this many times on this forum in the past, and I'll say it again. Regardless of what you call it, what's most important is that you can "Walk the Walk". Leave the talking and baton twirling to others.

And on that note, we should be working together to keep these arts from getting watered down to a Mc Dojo art. Work together to keep the combative nature of the FMA's alive and thriving. Not bickering about what can or can't be proven.

William

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Posted by Moromoro:

Iam sick of this KALI Garbage!
PLEASE TAKE A LOOK AT CHRIS POST IT MAKES A LOT OF SENSE..

the other post particularly by haumana and william are just down right ridiculous.......


>>Quote:
The word Kali exists there in several forms. The Sri Vishaya Empire of Hindu origin has Kali as the goddess of war, and the Kathakali theatere drama which hosts many battle scenes. In fact Many culutres in the PI, are still lingually tamil based. It can be found there. >>>

Yes they host the word but they are not from the philippines, how many times have you seen when people realise that Kali is not used in FMA in the philippines the westerners (KALIFORNIANS) say it is shortened for other words... just lame excusses...




>>>Quote:
It's an American thing", or "not of Philippine origin".What always seems to get overlooked is that Eskrima and Arnis are Spanish terms, not Filipino. They are only in use because of the Spanish occupation of the Philippines for 300+ years.>>>


well then if eskrima and arnis are not filipino what is filipino.......
I think this shows your lack of knowledge on the subject.. our major languages of bisaya, tagalog, waray, bicolano, pampamgueno, ilongo...... HAVE ALL BEEN INFLUENCED BY THE SPANISH LANGUAGE....... now according to YOU THESE ARE NOT PILIPINO???????????

the only languages that could be said to be not influenced are that of the tausug, magindanao and other tribes....... Now are these people more PILIPINO THAN OTHER PILIPINO.. DO YOU KNOW OF THE HISTORY OF THE WORD PILIPINO (filipino)....??? when the spanish ruled Natives where not allowed to call themselves filipino this was reserved for the spanish settlers who now lived there......!!!!!!!!

!

>>>Quote:
... I do know that Mr. Inosanto did not make up the term Kali, in fact you other Pinoys know that as well. >>>


i think every one knows this but he is the one who popularised the term........YOU KEEP SAYING KALI EXISTED AND HOW DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT IT DIDNT EXIST?? NOW I WILL ASK YOU HOW DO YOU KNOW IT DID EXIST.........??????/// YOU SEEM TO TAKE THE WORD OF VILLABRILLE TO HART THIS MAN WAS KNOWN TO DRASTICALLY BEND THE TRUTH.....DO YOU TAKE HIS WORD THAT KALI EXISTED...........

ITS FUNNY how in CEBU the center of FMA no one knew of the term until inosanto popularised it..........

it is also funny how the greatest advocates of the term kali are U.S.A born (maybe you folk are from KALI FORNIA

i think thats where the origin of KALI lies.......... give it a rest this word is not a historical term for eskrima, arnis

look at it as a new name for arnis eskrima............

terry



>>>Quote:
It is what it is. My Kali will cut or crush reguardless of whether you believe in it or not. >>>


us folk here in Cebu would love to see you back up that statement........... dont love yourself too much

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Posted by Moromoro:
>>>Quote:
(You aren't putting a new name (fighting Eskrima) to describe an older style of Filipino combat are you??? thats a no, no.)>>>


i dont know what your problem is but give it a rest.. the kuntawman is probably one of the few people in these forums who is teaching FMA for what it is...
and if you learn with him youll probably get a sence of what it is like to learn in the philippines (for those of you who havent trained there....)

whats worng with calling it fighting eskrima.....ESKRIMA IS FOR FIGHTING>>>>

man you probably learn KALI and are now trying to put his art down....... GROW UP

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Posted by Terry T.:
William,

I agree with your statement of oral history involving martial arts being problematic. I've taken some grad level history courses, and they tell you: You basically can't make any factual assertion unless it is footnoted and refers to a credible source. 'Credible' are generally not the opinions of martial artists but things like court records, birth certificates, church records, death certificates, eyewitness accounts (suspect), forensic evidence, archaeological evidence, primary historical research, etc.

There is a method they teach for doing oral history, and, guess what, it involves a lot of rigorous cross checking of facts between independent sources and documentation of the anomalies. Oral history is considered less reliable than the kind of history that is based on hard documentation. But it's better than nothing.

Now what most martial artists do, me included, is believe the sincerity and credibility of their instructor--and repeat their statements. Frequently as fact. But when you're writing history or historiography you can really only attribute a statement to your teacher or to another source. And that's where things get off track.

It's too bad that there aren't more people out there that are actually working to write down the stories of the old guys. Leo Giron's son did a nice job interviewing his dad in, "Memories Ride the Ebb of Tide." And the Filipino community in Stockton had a big role to play in the research leading up to the TV show about the 1st Filipino Regiment in World War II. Of course, Don Dreger did important work on hopology and applying basic ethnographic methods to SE Asian cultures that make use of martial arts. That research needs follow-on study, don't you think?

Sadly, too few people have followed in their footsteps. Well, I can't. I have kids to take care of. But I wish that some guys would. Too many of the old guys have died out already.

Terry
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Posted by William:

Hey M&M, you might want to re-read my last post a few times to let it get past that thick candy shell of yours, or at least pull the stick out of your ass.


>>>Quote:
As kuntawman has stated its not about the name you can call it KALI all you want thats cool.... >>>


Your waffling, it’s “cool”, then you put it down. Make up your mind.


>>>Quote:
well then if eskrima and arnis are not filipino what is filipino....... I think this shows your lack of knowledge on the subject.. our major languages of bisaya, tagalog, waray, bicolano, pampamgueno, ilongo...... HAVE ALL BEEN INFLUENCED BY THE SPANISH LANGUAGE....... now according to YOU THESE ARE NOT PILIPINO>>>


Eskrima and Arnis are of Spanish origin. I didn’t say that they haven’t “become” Filipino, I said they were not of Filipino origin. Which is part of your argument against Kali. Again, re-read what I wrote.


>>>Quote:
YOU KEEP SAYING KALI EXISTED AND HOW DO YOU NOT KNOW THAT IT DIDNT EXIST?>>>


Re-read….If you calm down and read it objectively, I basically say that I do not know if it did or didn’t exist. You’re the one who is so adamant that it didn’t. How do you not know that it did?


>>>Quote:
it is also funny how the greatest advocates of the term kali are U.S.A born (maybe you folk are from KALI FORNIA.......i think thats where the origin of KALI lies.......... give it a rest this word is not a historical term for eskrima, arnis >>>


Yes, the art that is practiced by the Philippine Special Forces and broadcast nationally on Philippine television originated in the USA. Wake up son. USA born? Again, WAKE UP SON!!! Pekiti-Tirsia KALI is not of US origin, nor is its founders and current heir of US origin. The term Arnis was dropped because it is not of Filipino ORIGIN. Is Kali? All that has been proven here is that no one can prove it one way or the other. But, if next week some stone tablets or parchment scrolls were un-earthed outlining Filipino history before the Spanish occupation, what would be on it? Well of the three, I’d put my money on Kali, cause Eskrima and Arnis certainly won’t be there.

Again M&M, re-read what I posted, in the end it doesn’t matter because it can’t be proven beyond a shadow of a dought (just because you say so doesn’t count) either way. Again, you rail on Kali not being of Filipino origin, yet call your arts by a name that isn’t of Filipino ORIGIN either. Just pointing out your inconsistencies M&M.



>>>Quote:
us folk here in Cebu would love to see you back up that statement........... >>>




Well, to M&M, all I can say is follow your own tag line son…don’t sing, bring it. I’m here.

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Posted by Moromoro:
yes william


>>>Quote:
Again M&M, re-read what I posted, in the end it doesn’t matter because it can’t be proven beyond a shadow of a dought (just because you say so doesn’t count) either way. Again, you rail on Kali not being of Filipino origin, yet call your arts by a name that isn’t of Filipino ORIGIN either. Just pointing out your inconsistencies M&M.>>>


>>>Quote:
Again, you rail on Kali not being of Filipino origin, yet call your arts by a name that isn’t of Filipino ORIGIN either. Just pointing out your inconsistencies M&M>>>


this is the only thing i dindnt like about your post...eskrima arnis not of filipino origin..well of course they spanish words.... but if these are not filipino then our major languages are not of filipino origin according to your statement...........

It is not a question of origin,

1. the spaniish have heavily influenced our culture....
2. these terms are widely accepted by everyone practicing the arts in the philippines.....
3. also these terms have been used for over 160years.




>>>Quote:
Is Kali? All that has been proven here is that no one can prove it one way or the other.>>>


research conducted by GM tony Diego and topher rickets have stated that the word kali was never used until yambao wrote it on his book.. they also could not FIND ANY EVIDENCE of its existence anywhere in the PHILIPPINES.........

i think the fma are big enough now so that every body knows about them. why is it that they could not find any evidence that kali existed anywhere in the philippines??????????????????????

KALI IS AN INDIAN WORD ISNT IT???????????????????


>>>Quote:
Well, to M&M, all I can say is follow your own tag line son…don’t sing, bring it. I’m here.>>>


i dont mean to be rude but who are you, your not even one of the highest ranking members of your style.....

************* my email.

oh yeah we will be having a full contact no protection tournament in cebu 2004..............

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Posted by theuntawman:
>>>Quote:
Originally posted by haumana2000


1.(Hmmm... Didn't know that Karate was a Tagalog word, sounds Karazy!)

2.(Dayum thats ancient!)


3.(Wheres your Proof? Is there a written record of this historical belief? You've made an effort to disprove what every other teacher believes accoring to what they were taught so what gives?) A little bending to try to authenticate your beliefs vs other instructors.


4.(You aren't putting a new name (fighting Eskrima) to describe an older style of Filipino combat are you??? thats a no, no.)

5.Point is, that the PI has no written history. People will always mold according to their personal beliefs and their own agenda. It is a name, nothing more. I even remember a post where you said you use the term Kali occasionally.

6.Come on braddahs, we need to put this one to bed.>>>


1. "karate", like "judo" are common words for martial arts back home, especially a FMA teacher who wants to look "modern", even if there is no karate or judo in those systems. presas style arnis, for example was once known as "arjuken karate" (ARnis, JUdo KENdo). like everyone says, its just a name. but when the students come, i tell them the truth about what they will be learning.

2. "ancient"? the philippine martial arts is ancient. the difference, is with us and the arts of other countries, change is tradition for us. the art should change with every generation. my art is ancient, but its my own modern version of this ancient art. the difference between me making my own system, and many other people, is i have been doing my martial art for more than 20 years. i earned the right to do this as a teacher, not a "instant guro" with 5 years.

3. like you said, nobody has proof. i even use to believe what i was reading. but i saw with my own eyes, and heard with my own ears about the existence of kali in the philippines. i dont fight against the use of kali, only the false stories people tell about it. if you are talking about muslims who do kuntaw or silat, i am proof of that.

4. new names are not a nono for the philippine martial arts. people do it all the time. but at least i didnt say i have preserved a lost art of ____ eskrima (or kinomutai/panantukan/dumug)

5. i disagree. yes, the philippines has almost no written history. but when people change it, it is not what they actually believe that makes them do it, like you said, its personal agenda. many people dont want to let go of the word kali, they find any kind of excuse or "proof" about it. then that lets some filipinos back home call what they do "kali" and make a lot of money doing it. you know what? if i was poor, and saw the opportunity to take advantage off some uneducated foreigners, i would probably do it too.

6. no, as long as people are trying to change what americans think is really happening in the philippines (existence of false arts, corruption in government, starvation etc) the pilipino with a consious should not let it rest. this is how the philippine got colonized before, and why filipinos let shady government get rich while people are starving. let it go, if you dont care.

"typhoon kuntaw karate" is a style that i made for people who do not want to fight full contact. except, they still do, right before the black belt level. i add the word "karate" just like i add "kali" for ADVERTISING. since some people insist on KALI as an art, its the only way i can compete with the schools that do use it, and since most people know the word KARATE, its the only way i can compete with the karate people. i do not teach in back yards, i have a commercial location, so 15-20 students will not be enough. the difference between me and other commercial schools are, my youngest age is 13, i have no womans classes or tae bo, and all of my students fight.

and yes, i use the word "FIGHTING ESKRIMA", because there is a difference between most of the eskrima around, and the eskrima i do. and the difference? "fighting", not "drilling". there is a big damn difference, and the people who sign up quickly find out what they are.

so a new name for an old idea? yes, because what is considered old in my town, is actually new.

so its my turn to say

whats in a name? the important thing is, can i back up what i am teaching? yup, anytime.

*************************************************************************************

Posted by William

>>>Quote:
this is the only thing i dindnt like about your post...eskrima arnis not of filipino origin..well of course they spanish words.... but if these are not filipino then our major languages are not of filipino origin according to your statement >>>


Your selectively dissecting my post. Read again...

I wrote:

Eskrima and Arnis are of Spanish origin. I didn’t say that they haven’t “become” Filipino, I said they were not of Filipino origin. Which is part of your argument against Kali. Again, re-read what I wrote.

I didn't say (the words) they weren't Filipino, just not of Filipino origin.


>>>Quote:
research conducted by GM tony Diego and topher rickets have stated that the word kali was never used until yambao wrote it on his book.. they also could not FIND ANY EVIDENCE of its existence anywhere in the PHILIPPINES......... i think the fma are big enough now so that every body knows about them. why is it that they could not find any evidence that kali existed anywhere in the philippines??????????????????????>>>


*Well, then why is it still called Kali on the Bakbakan website? Just curious?
http://www.bakbakan.com/

*(Kali is what GM Toney Diego & Topher Rickets call their system on their web site)

Where did Yambao get it? Are you saying he fabricated it? Why would he use it? It certainly wasn't to sell Kali to foreigners who would by it over Arnis.


>>>Quote:
i dont mean to be rude but who are you... >>>


Unfortunately, that's how you come off...intended or not. And who are you?


>>>Quote:
your not even one of the highest ranking members of your style.....>>>


Are you? I never claimed to be. But I know what I know, and I've fought it out. I don't have a problem standing behind it. Besides, I'm not the one who gets on this forum and belittles everyone who trains FMA outside of the Philippines. There are a number of folks here who just do drills and stick twirling, but there are also a number of us who train for real contact and strive to keep the combative nature of the art intact. So yea, It gets my hackles up when folks like you get on and try pointing a finger at me and try to label me a stick twirler...wrong amigo. Over the years, I have trained Eskrima, I've trained Arnis, and yes Kali on a daily basis. I'm not seminar trained and damn proud of it.


>>>Quote:
oh yeah we will be having a full contact no protection tournament in cebu 2004..............>>>


I'm well aware, and if things go well for me financially this year, I'll be there.

Look, I'll state again, I don't care what you call it. I'm just trying to get some answers to what I see as inconsistencies and double standards in the "no kali" argument. Don't blow it into something it's not.

>>>TheKuntawman wrote:

Quote:
whats in a name? the important thing is, can i back up what i am teaching? yup, anytime >>>


That's what I've said all along.

And M&M, you shouldn't be surprised if I give you a shot over the bow for you thinly veiled threat. You get what you give.


William

**********************************************************************************************

Posted by Humana2000:
Kuntawman, at least you have the balls, and intellect to stage a conversation that can agree to disagree. That is what this forum is for. I DO NOT TEACH KALI. I teach and perpetuate the culture traditions, and martial history of the Philippines and PAcific Islands. Including Polynesia, and Micronesia. I do not charge for my classes. my program is for displaced Islanders to learn about their heritage, and warrioir traditions so far from their home. I know that there may or may not have been kali, arnis or eskrima, shit when I learned I didnt even think of it as a martial art, just learning how to fight. Instead of techniques, they were called tricks. I just say that it helps to give us Filipinos, (I am Pinoy, and French Tahitian) a sense of pride, and something that we can be proud of. That is better for our young people toi learn than, being enveloped in being Ghetto fabulous, shooting, robbing, and selling drugs. I know I have been there. I WAS A THUG, one of my cousins who teaches with me Pat Marquina spent time in Canon City Correctional Facility (supermax) for doing what we used to. I grew up, and became a man, moromoro, why dont you try it?

Moromoro, all you ever post about is well come to cebu, are you there now? Or are you dwn under? You ride the coat tails of your teachers from your early posts about footwork, oh well gm says this, or that, or he does it this way, or... come to cebu, and youll find some real escrimadors. what hat HAVE YOU DONE? Yourslef? Do you have any thoughts of your own? Or are you just tryin to represent your hood because it is known to have a great tradition of FMA? See, I know all about this, and I have met many like you before, think if you say what fool im from compton! and evryone will automatically become afraid to stand up! Who can attest to your skill? I have fought on the streets, in Juvi, in the Army, and in the Ring, and NHB style fights. I have proof, both word of mouth, and video. What do you have name one source who can attest to your dazzling skill? They always say the empty can rattles the most, and your the perfect example. I remember my dad telling that unfortunatly a lot of Pinoys are like crabs in a barrel, when ever one tries to climb out, the others pull him back in and down. Am I supposed to apologize to the great moromoro for offending you? When you first came into these forums, I used to respect you for your outspoken opinion, and nationalism, as I am all about pride, and showing the world the beauty and effectiveness of our culture. But, any more, I think your just a BUSTA!

Kuntawman, your opinion is always welcome, like I sad I dont agree with the attitude of some of the Kalifornia clan, I do not agree with everything they say or do but lets not hate on a brotha because he did what he set out to do. expose our arts to the world.
Kuntawman,

*************************************************************************************
Posted by Humana2000:
Oh, moromoro, didnt you piss of one of our Bakbakan brothers in another forum who actually lives near you? I read the post, and you backpeddeled so fast when he responded that you should have been on a bike! It's easy when your far away eh?

*************************************************************************************
Posted by Humana2000:
There are those in the PI, who do not just accept, but embrace this word. Showing it is up to each to decide.
From GM Gaje's website:At the age of 66, my life has been devoted to the preservation of the system with the desire that all the elements of the great teachings from my grandfather, the late magnifico Supreme Grandmaster Conrado B. Tortal, will be kept sacred and that the teachings must be imparted with scholarly atmosphere. In the course of such preservation my teachings with many different environments taught me to conceptualize the system into a productive well structured methodology in order that the learning process can be easily understood without sacrificing the true chemistry of the cultural Philosophy - truly Filipino. My emphasis on the intellectual calisthenics was to make everybody understands that in order to learn and to achieve the true discipline is to understand the Philosophical values before understanding the techniques. To me this is the foundation of the true filipino discipline referred as the Filipino Martial Arts.
At this juncture I don't want to use the terminology Filipino Martial Arts because it seems that the more someone uses the word Filipino Martial Arts the value of discipline is reduce to a very discouraging stature. Where can you find a Filipino Martial Arts having a name Escrima in Spanish, Arnis claimed as a Mexican word and a truly Filipino otherwise known as Kali, so if we follow these three names, we follow how the Spaniards name themselves as Jose Mario Francisco De al Fuente or Maria Theresa Antonieta Ledesma in simple logic by using three names as we often see in most books or video tapes or names of the school, Arnis, Escrima, Kali is not Filipino but Spanish in substance. So if to follow the real Filipino culture in making names, it is only one name: Juan or Pedro or Jose or Macario etc. It would be rather more distinct to say, Filipino indigenous discipline, the art of Kali, a Filipino Fighting System. Since martial arts today is identified as Chinese, Japanese,Korean, Indonesian, Malaysian. Filipinos and other names that are existing in many versions, the original practices of discipline has been reduced to more of a fitness program, sports competition and ranking make me blackbelt mania or make me certified instructors after four seminars or how much to be a blackbelt syndrome.

In the old China, to study Kungfu regardless of style, one must be willing to travel and climb the highest mountain peak where the 70 year grandmaster lives surrounded by wooden trees. And for one to be accepted he must do all the ordeals before he can be accepted as a student or in Japan, one must follow the path of a warrior or in Korea one must do what the masters wants to do as test.
And in the Philippines one must have to accept the beating of the feet or arms before the techniques were taught or in Indonesia one must be a Muslim to learn the silats, or to fulfill the 40 days rituals before becoming a student of silat. Of course that is impossible to do these things at the present conditions. But what ever the changes, the Doctrine of Discipline must not be altered or remove from the daily practices. One of the Disciplines is the Discipline of Loyalty, loyalty is not only to the Master or persons in authority but loyalty to the tenets of that Doctrine of Discipline.

Pekiti-Tirsia is an Institution of Higher Studies in terms of the Filipino Cultural Arts - the Art of Kali, a Filipino Fighting System. It is an Institution where the higher studies in combative technology has been enhanced through hazardous personal contacts with the people from the hinterlands of the different islands in the Philippines with the purpose to authentic the originality of the systems interoperability and to check the relationship of the cultural practices from the ceremonial dances to ritualistic metaphysical power applied to the fighting advantage.

The task was so important because as the only remaining Pekiti-Tirsia in authority I have to fulfill the mission of my great grandfather that in order for me to expand my understanding on how the Pekiti-Tirsia can be compared to other system I must interface with the non- Pekiti-Tirsia system not to copy or pirate their techniques but to make comparative analysis what is the weak parts in the other system and to find out what is the strong points in other systems. As what they did in the past with all his brothers making long journeys to find out who were the best in certain places in the Islands and neighboring Islands. More than 12 years in the Philippines and in and out to countries in Asia, interfacing with Indonesian and Malaysian Art that is truly Asian arts provided me a wider perspectives that the foundation of the Pekiti-Tirsia footwork strategies and the open hand strategies found its plurality in the mountains of Sumatra where the word siko is found which is also siko in Ilonggo, which is an elbow, mata also mata to Ilongo, the eyes and the sipa or sikad, kicks also in Ilonggo my own dialect and to check the word Kali in Malaysia was mentioned as often in the sentence as the words were spoken where the word Kali is a prefix in the Filipino language.

So the mission of the Pekiti-Tirsia is to provide each student, instructors and master instructors a scholarly materials of what is truly Filipino with indigenous materials based on Philosophy, logic and reasons that in the course for the furtherance of continuing mastery, what is truly Filipino culture braced with hospitality, courtesy and discipline will leave as lasting legacy as were experienced by the Spaniards in 1521, Americans in 1900, Japanese in 1942. It was inexcusable defeat that made the Filipino Fighting Art, the art of indigenous virtue, the art that won the war.

Pekiti-Tirsia will continue to live with that victory and we will defend that victory at all cost to preserve the only legacy proud to be called the LEGENDARIES of the modern times in the living past.

This has been proven by the first Filipino Martial Arts tournament in Cebu in 1979. Against the veteran Doce Pares claimed undefeated since 1930 in many full contact challenges. Pekiti-Tirsia made the first victory by defeating the Champion of Doce Pares before the crowd of 5,000 people at the Cebu Coliseum on record.This was the first test how was an original indigenous technology of Pekiti-Tirsia defeating the Escrima, Judo, Aikido mixed under the banner of Doce Pares.

On August 2004, the Pekiti-Tirsia Global Organization and the Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls with a joint sponsorship of the Force Recon Marines will sponsor the Battle of Kali 2004 to be held in Metro Manila-Philippines in an Extreme Full Contact Tournament on a Surrender Policy with a simple rules: "If you cannot stand the heat, get out from the kitchen" This is an open tournament provided the system or style is existing and willing to accept the rules.

55 years old and up are invited to join no headgear policy, 3 minutes per round total of 6 rounds. Choice of all out policy (Mas todas). No definition of titles or ranks. Come to what you believe and go if you have no business.

Below 50 years old no headgear, no body armour, surrender policy, no judges, no referres. Only Sports Marshall will separate after one surrenders.

By virtue of the Filipino Fighting Arts the Philippines is the best location for this type of tournament because if the tradition is correct, dignity of the traditional art must be respected and that no reason for one to disrespect by disproving that the tradition is wrong. If one believes that it can break the tradition then he must enter into this tournament. Our Force Recon Marines from heavy weight to light is on training now at least 6 hours a day following the tradition until August 2004, they are prepared to disprove that tradition is wrong but will defend that the tradition is right. So our other ultimate mission is to find out where and who wants to break the indigenous tradition, that will destroy the legacy of what is truly Filipino Fighting Arts - the art of Kali. Then we will stand to defend at all cost and maintain the tradition of the victories made by our great fathers who where before us.

There will be various fighting competitions subject to the choices agreed by both parties, this will be held at the most prestigious sports center at a full view of many people including the TV/media channels.

********************************************************************************************

Posted by Krys:

Hello William

Where did you get the information that Kali was outlawed in the Philippines, i am really interested? Is there a Spanish text about it?
We would surely find the word Kali in this document.



concerning that i said : The "Philippines islands" were never totally conquered by the spaniards you answered


>>>Quote:
That is well understood. But they did control the majority of the country.>>>



Vast parts of the country were only "colonized" during the 19th-20th century.
The spaniards controled only a few towns in Mindanao the second largest island of the archipelago. Sulu was never conquered before the american invasion, even we frenchs broke our teeth on it...
...
Muslim raiders were everywhere and even had some footholds in Luzon and Mindoro a big part of the islands escaped spanish control...



>>>Quote:
BTW, I have two shows taped from the Philippines that refer to Kali on national television. One is Good Morning Asia, the other is a show called Gameplan. So, it's been used and heard nationally in PI.>>>


I do not mean any disrespect but filipinos are specialy receptive to american concepts and ideas, they also like foreign products and names (courtesy of some nice trade treaties...).

For example local "ju-jitsu" (what foreigners understand by ju-jitsu) is called combat-judo. Arts like Wushu or Silat may be called Karate ...
Kali being the word in use in the US sounds better than Arnis de Mano...


Mabuhay ang FILIPINO Silat at Arnis.


*******************************************************************************

Posted by Moromoro:
william...




>>>Quote:
I didn't say (the words) they weren't Filipino, just not of Filipino origin.>>>


IS KALI OF FILIPINO ORIGIN?


>>>Quote:
Well, then why is it still called Kali on the Bakbakan website? Just curious?>>>


most of the masters that are using Kali have admitted to using it only because foreigners want to learn KALI

it is a name like i said before iam sick of this garbage to use the name is good it sounds good, but its the history of it thats is not true....(from the evidence we HAVE)

yeah i knew you were not a seminar man or a twirler or tapi tapi man.. at least you do the fighting which is more than what can be said about a lot of other people which iam sure you have had plenty of dealings with.....

*********************************************************************************
Posted by Moromoro:

WHAT ARE YOU ON???? first you critizise and try to speak shit about somebodys website now this!!!!!!!!


>>>Quote:
all you ever post about is well come to cebu, are you there now? Or are you dwn under? You ride the coat tails of your teachers from your early posts about footwork, oh well gm says this, or that, or he does it this way, or... >>>

come to cebu, and youll find some real escrimadors. what hat HAVE YOU DONE? Yourslef? Do you have any thoughts of your own?


Iam not like you i have not started my own system like you. there is still a lot to learn from the GM's iam learning from...AND YES I DO LISTEN TO THEM AND RESPECT WHAT THEY SAY PARTICULARLY WHEN IT IS PRACTICAL AND HAS BEEN USED BEFORE IN COMBAT....





>>>Quote:
what hat HAVE YOU DONE? Yourslef? >>>


10 years muay thai 10 years submission arts wrestling(japan) 10 years jujutsu (HEAVYWEIGHT) and 17 years eskrima... yes iam READY..and of course i have thoughts... BUT I RESPECT AND LOVE THESE GM"S AND I LISTEN TO THEM... THAT IS A WAY YOU GET BETTER 'LISTEN'.....





>>>Quote:
See, I know all about this, and I have met many like you before, think if you say what fool im from compton! and evryone will automatically become afraid to stand up! Who can attest to your skill >>>


you see this is what iam sick of..... FMArtist who claim their style is best.. you see the big ads high evolved, 500year old blade, knife traingles, trapping, blablabla and all those other words i dont know of...............

ESKRIMA IS ESKRIMA if you learn an art which is non drill based and is based on fighting then your probably learning everything there is to learn about the garrote in a fight.... its mainly about startegy and concepts non of this tuhon, datu nonsense.....
this is what i mean by its time to put up or shut up......iam not saying that i have fought this guy and that guy because the guys i have fought non of them where any names (but they where probably better than some of these big name masters)
all i have been saying and this has been from day 1 is that we have never turned down or backed down from a challenge..... In cebu and here. in oz..


>>>Quote:
Oh, moromoro, didnt you piss of one of our Bakbakan brothers in another forum who actually lives near you? I read the post, and you backpeddeled so fast when he responded that you should have been on a bike! It's easy when your far away eh?>>>


all i have said on that post was first i have admired him and always have he is a pinoy teaching eskrima... but i think that he is taking advantage of people thats all.... he charges too much and he had the audacity to say that maybe what i was learning was not worth 50$ an hour... i told him i was learning from GM ABRiAN AND GM NAVARRO and they both do not charge me they are like hilots which iam sure was the same thiiing as what his teacher charged him...

notice how he didnt reply to my message( private and forum) after he realised that i was training in the same type of scenario as what he trainned in when he was learning. also i have left my email address there and he dind reply to that.

i have shown the message to tatay Navarro and he laughed like anything he was ammused to how angry this person got... also he realises that because of this there may be a few knocks on my door so he has upped the training with me... on my days off i have been training twice a day in eskrima.. but i still go on ave 4-5 times a week....while doing 4 nights of muay thai and two days of submission.... YOU HAVE TO BE PREPARED FOR PEOPLE WHO MAY WANT TO KNOCK ON YOUR DOOR....

DAGHAN KAAYONG SALAMAT

TERRY

*************************************************************************************

Posted by Humana2000:

First of all. I owe everyone on this board an apology, thats what happens when you write when pissed off. I should have been the bigger man and let it go. Moromoro, Hell yeah I got pissed off, I did not "create" my own style, I dont do Inosanto Kali, or panantukan, or any of that. But you know it pisses me off when you somehow insinuate that I am somehow not a proud pinoy when I have been working to ignite the flame of culture in our young people for many years. Try being the only person not black or white, at a military base in Georgia U.S, the shit I had to put up with, I AM PROUD!!! The fact that I do not criticize the inosanto clan is me saying hey Dan, at least you had the balls to expose to the world what noone else did at the time. As for Kuntawman, and his website if you look at the website, there are things on it that could be construed as contrary to his posts here am I wrong? I stated, dont get mad at other instructors for using Kali if you do the same thing, end of point. Now, I maintain what I said about how I sued to agree with alot of what you used to say, but lately it just seems like your tryin to disagree for the sake of disagreement, this subject is tired already. However, dont take what I am saying as me trying to retract and do a 180, I stand as a man, we can disagree, but as a martial artist, I should have had more control.

*****************************************************************************************

Posted by Moromoro:

>>>Quote:
Now, I maintain what I said about how I sued to agree with alot of what you used to say, but lately it just seems like your tryin to disagree for the sake of disagreement, this subject is tired already. However, dont take what I am saying as me trying to retract and do a 180, I stand as a man, we can disagree, but as a martial artist, I should have had more control.>>>


thats fair enough, but i havent been disagring for the sake of it.. as i have said i dont care for the word kali (me you and a heck of a lot of people know better)... we understand the history or as for our culture the lack of it (written history)...its just the begginers and the uninformed who get suckered....



>>>Quote:
But you know it pisses me off when you somehow insinuate that I am somehow not a proud pinoy when I have been working to ignite the flame of culture in our young people for many years. Try being the only person not black or white, at a military base in Georgia U.S, the shit I had to put up with, I AM PROUD!!!>>>


we rae aLL PROUD and thats what is good about it.....


>>>Quote:
The fact that I do not criticize the inosanto clan is me saying hey Dan, at least you had the balls to expose to the world what noone else did at the time.>>>


man i look at DANNY INOSANTO AS BEIGN A GREAT JEET KUN DO MARTIAL ARTIST......
I think that he exposed it first to the ''world'' because he was the only one with the resources to do so.. i dont think it was because of balls.............there was no need to have the balls to do something like what he did...


ok until next time

peace

terry
*********************************************************************************************
Posted by William:

>>>Quote:
Where did you get the information that Kali was outlawed in the Philippines, i am really interested? Is there a Spanish text about it?>>>


Re-read what I wrote please. I didn't say Kali was outlawed. I said martial practices.

Let me try and pair this down to what I, and some others outside of the Philippines see as the contradiction in the argument. It usually revolves around the point that keeps being stated that:

Kali = Not of Filipino origin, made up for Americans (or those outside of PI) or Hindu/Indonesian/Malay origin.

Yet you embrace terms that aren’t either:

Arnis = Not of Filipino origin (Spanish)
Eskrima = Not of Filipino origin (Spanish)

Then it gets stated that the word Kali doesn’t exist, yet a cursory search of Filipino history and Language sites bring up words that have Kali as a derivative. Now, I’m not a linguist, but I hope you can see the contradictions from an outside point of view.

Now I will state again, I DON’T KNOW IF KALI EXISTED THE IN PRE-SPANISH PHILIPPINES. But, if you look at what is believed (and listed on many PI University sites) to be the migration routes of the different peoples that over time made up and populated pre-Spanish Philippines, many come from countries or races that do use that word in conjunction with martial practices (the Hindu god of Kali most prominent). Now, to me, that, at the very least points to the possibility the word Kali could have been used in pre-Spanish PI. Was it? I can’t say it was, but the terms Arnis and Eskrima are definitely words that come from the Spanish colonizers. So, if it wasn't Kali, and we know it wasn't Eskrima or Arnis....what was it called?

Now, on that note, I give GT Gaje credit for publicly stating why he chooses to drop the term Arnis and use the term Kali. You may disagree, but he says that he won’t use those terms because they are Spanish in origin and not indigenous to the Philippines. I know that you argue that Kali is not indigenous, but from the points I’ve stated above, it stands a much better chance of being so then the other two.

I don’t know why others use the term Kali. Perhaps they will come out here and let us know. I know there are others on this forum that use the term in their systems. What say you folks?

(With all due respect) For the people who say they don’t believe in the term but use it to “draw in students”. You are perpetuating the (what you believe to be) myth that you rail against. You can’t have it both ways.

Again, just trying to point out contradictions that I see in the argument. I can’t say it did or didn’t exist. But in the absence of definitive proof, I’ll lean (as Terrie T. said) on the side of my instructors (and I’ve had them from each point of view) and do my own research as well….and I’m sure you will do the same.

Kali, Eskrima, and Arnis…It’s all good!

William

*************************************************************************************************

Posted by Terry T.:

I don't know any historians in the P.I. There is a guy (I forget his name--Pinoy in his 60s though) up at the University of Washington in Seattle who is very respected in the English language for his research on Phillippines History. He may be able to suggest some primary source material (or lack thereof), but I don't think that the debate here would interest him too much.

I don't know that I'm informed enough on this issue to assert an opinion. The substance of this debate has centered around the appropriateness and origin of the word "Kali". Regardless of its origins it has apparently come into common usage in the English language even though its use is more problematic in the P.I.

I will say that the tone and character of this debate brings to my mind adjectives such as: childish, disgraceful, chest-pounding, unpersuasive and nasty. I don't think that anybody thinking of taking up the Filipino martial arts, after reading this thread, would be likely to do anything other than head the other way.

If you guys want to use this forum to set up fights then fine with me, but you could be a bit more civilized about it. Perhaps you could take a lesson from the Thais on that one. They're very gracious during fight negotiations...

Terry

********************************************************************************************
hello william



>>>Quote:
Kali = Not of Filipino origin, made up for Americans (or those outside of PI) or Hindu/Indonesian/Malay origin. Yet you embrace terms that aren’t either:

Arnis = Not of Filipino origin (Spanish)
Eskrima = Not of Filipino origin (Spanish)>>>




Thats because that is in our culture, the spanish culture moulded todays filipino culture (also american culture has influenced us)
As i have said before we embraced the language, not all of it but all our major languages have been influenced by spanish.....Our religion (most popular religion roman catholic was shown to us by our spanish forefathers)
Many pinoys have spanish ancestry, this is why we have embraced these terms, actually we HAVE NOT EMBRACED THEM IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN KNOWN BY THOSE TERMS TO US...................

THIS IS THE POINT.... ESKRIMA AND ARNIS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN THOSE TERMS AS FAR BACK AS VERBAL HISTORY CAN REMEMBER.....


THIS has been my only argument with you.. man i frankly dont care if an art is called kali as i have said before i think it isa cool name anyway.....



>>>Quote:
Now, on that note, I give GT Gaje credit for publicly stating why he chooses to drop the term Arnis and use the term Kali. You may disagree, but he says that he won’t use those terms because they are Spanish in origin and not indigenous to the Philippines.>>>


firstly let me say i like his system...he is a good master who has been teaching a long time and is well respected in the west as well as manila and negros...

i can not understand this, i can undersatnd where manoy leo is coming from but does this mean he will give up everything because it is not of pilipino origin...what about religion (very important to all pilipino's) catholic or islam he will have to drop it it is not of pilipino origin.. what about the knowledge of making the blades and the use of bladed weapons will he give this up it is not of pilipino origin as well.....?????

i can really understand the true intention behind his statement..

but i guess it could also be view as just using this as advertising, its just like saying our art is different because bla bla its got more history... which is good iam not knocking the advertising but just the power of his statement i believe was a liitle strong and harsh..
and maybe not really needed?????




>>>Quote:
With all due respect) For the people who say they don’t believe in the term but use it to “draw in students”. You are perpetuating the (what you believe to be) myth that you rail against. You can’t have it both ways. >>>


i think they are following by example, this is common in the PI e.g calling your art karate when it is not just to get the people to train...the best example to the term kali is tatang illustrisimo.. he used it because thats what the foreigners wanted to learn!!!
tatang celo (his uncle) always used eskrima i believe....

my final words on the subject are

ESKRIMA, ARNIS AND 'KALI' are all names...

GO SEE THE CONTENT of a particular style within one of these names and if you like it go for it...........

Terry

*****************************************************************************************

William Posted:

>>>Quote:
I will say that the tone and character of this debate brings to my mind adjectives such as: childish, disgraceful, chest-pounding, unpersuasive and nasty. I don't think that anybody thinking of taking up the Filipino martial arts, after reading this thread, would be likely to do anything other than head the other way.



Quote:
If you guys want to use this forum to set up fights then fine with me, but you could be a bit more civilized about it. Perhaps you could take a lesson from the Thais on that one. They're very gracious during fight negotiations...>>>



Awwwww Dad.

No, you are correct. That is why as I stated in the begining that I usually stay out of this debate. But, in a way I think it was good to hash it out in the sense that It gives me a better perspective on the issue. It may not have been PC all the time and some calling out went on, but in the end, I learned a few things from it.

William

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Posted by Humana2000:

I agree that any person considering taking up FMA would be prone to turn the other way. Sometimes this forum reminds me of a bunch of bickering old women. Once again, I apologize to the forum members here, I was not myself that day.
Musta had an oldschool flashback, ghetto!
And thats on the shizza my nizza

Ok, kidding.

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Posted by theKuntawman:

i dont think anybody is really saying, dont use kali". no one is saying, if you use kali to describe your martial arts your a liar, either.

the debate is when those who know better, call the art "kali" then they say things they know are not true, like

"what i teach is the ancient art of kali, the mother art of eskrima and arnis.."

"kali is unlike arnis and eskrima, because...."

"kali is a more complete arts, unlike arnis and eskrima...."

"my art "predate" eskrima and arnis/prehispanic/etc..."

so what if your art is effective, isnt honesty important? then the people who use the word "kali", including me, should educate people when they come to study this ancienct, more complete, mother art, on the reality of the myth.

and like i said, many filipino teachers will feel better if the correction came from the one who is most well known for promoting the incorrect informations, and at least a pilgrammage to the "mother country" of his blood and his arts origin.

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Posted by theKuntawman:

okay, its true that we do not know the old name of FMA,

but its not a reason to make up a history or accept one that is not true just to fill in the missing part.